'>>92568208

Magic and tech are one and the same. You'd be a fool to not incorporate magic bullets to your machinegun.';

'>>92568208
>>92568220
reminder that the only reason we don't have more tech in forgotten realms are the damn Harpers who try to keep the artificers down because they won't share their designs with the world, despite that being a part of the motivation for innovation you know, besides MONEY
the only reason Baldurs Gate got to keep its printing machine was because they shared the technology

knowing this it is weird to think that people started to homebrew the Gunslinger class, I am just going to guess they're not familiar with the Harpers

anyway, the Harpers suck and the world would be better without them
and somehow they're supposed to be the 'good guys'

also both magic and guns have their uses, but magic is more versatile- a gun can kill someone, but a necromancer could just raise 50 zombies and give them guns, and 50 guns are better than one';

'>>92568208
magic is subtle and tech is gross
they can be incorporated together, for example a bullet does more damage if you tell the goblin its a magic bullet. really selling it requires more and more elaborate prep, understanding of the goblins own cultural unconscious and obtaining the proper symbols to spook him with.
Because this most magic is supportive since you just have to learn your guys beliefs';

'>>92568208
Gun thread time again? At least it's not another female custody, romance, magical realm thread.';

'>>92568208
The solution is to allow magic to do impossible things e.g. turn invisible, but keep it inefficient at direct damage, both dealing and tanking. If your classes "guy who shoots faster than you" and "guy you need to triple tap to take down", a "guy who can turn another invisible" isn't the end of the world, especially because he can buff one of the other 2. This however breaks down when magic bullets are better than regular bullets or if there's a protection from bullets spell. This means gish are right out, but also most summoners, as "guy behind 1000 skeletons" is usually better than any single dude at dealing DMG or taking it. Tangentially, if the average caster knows only a handful of spells or if more powerful effects require specialization, getting better mind bullets comes at the cost of actual unique magic effects.';

'>>92568208
I preffer a world where magical materials exists and magical effects are created through the use of technology derived from those magical materials.

so yeah, I like Magitech, not enough settings have that and those that do don't do it correctly or half-asses it.
Eberron is nearly good.';

'>>92568208
>which side are you?
My own';

'>>92568286
>Gunslinger class
Such a dumb fucking concept. Guns are good because you can teach a fucking peasant who never held anything but a hoe in his hands how to use a weapon who can kill a noble knight in a single shot.
Like there isn't a bowmen or a sword-guy class. What the fuck even is a gunslinger? A person who can draw his gun real fast and is ferly accurate with it.
>>92568220
Magic guns would be much simpler, from a mechanical standpoint at least. You would be a fool not to use one.
What keeps guns balanced in these kinds of settings is the part that everyone ignores because its lame. It takes you a minute to reload one. And no you probably aren't a drilled redcoat who can reload a musket in 15 seconds. This is how guns should be used
>Aim well
>Shoot and probably kill a target of much importance
>fix bayonet and charge
Alternativly
>Take out a pistol and shoot
>Take out another one
>Repeat until you run out of pistols

But what about magical guns? Well how does it utilize magic? Is the ammunition enchanted or enhanced with magic? Is the firing mechanism reliant on magic? Do you need to cast a spell of some kind to fire the gun? Conjure a fireball at the bottom of a thick long barrel and put a heavy projectile at the other end and boom you have a very powerful gun, sure it uses a spell to shoot but its almost an equivalent to a railgun.

Like people bitch so much about guns. Its a up-powered crossbow. One that does even more damage and that takes even longer to reload. You don't hear people make memes about how haha I kill a wizard with a crossbow. I mean haha the wizard casts Magic Missile, 3 or more auto-hit magical projectiles that WILL hit you no mater what. Sure they don't hurt that much but you cant escape them. They almost hut as mush as a Arrow from a shortbow. Not to mention all the staffs which are basically guns. Staff of magic missile is shotgun that you can only use 7 times a day and that becomes more powerful the more you use it.';

'What a horrendous waste of server capacity';

'>>92568930
this lol';

'>Blow a hole in richfag who can buy himself a load of plate armor.
>Y-you don't have any skill! You need to let me get in close and stab you! >Anyone can use a projectile weapon!';

'Magic is arbitrarily powerful. For something like [Fireball] to work or exist, something even more sophisticated than a gun would need to be employed behind the scenes.

If the magic comes from the hands, it was made to be that way. Why not from anywhere else? This is also why shit like D&D is inherently closer to sci-fi due to how conveniently artificial the world is.';

'>>92569059
This. Nature wouldn’t just pursue a point where energy lends itself to human fingers, not without some alien intelligence to guide it that way. Mermaids would never evolve to look like mermaids. If they did, some sick pervy alien forced evolution to take that shape.';

'>>92568208
>NO WAIT!
>I NEED TO FIND 3 ANCIENT ARTIFACTS AND THEN PERFORM A COMPLEX RITUAL TO GIVE THE PRESIDENT A HEART ATTACK FROM THE SAFETY OF MY BASEMENT

Do you not understand how real life magic as attempted? There were no fireballs, and the ability to curse or even kill from afar is outrageously powerful. You’d be the world’s most terrifying assassin.';

'>>92568208
I hate both. It’s better when they have intrinsic strengths and weaknesses. For example, Nasuverse (before it descended into Fate historical wankery [which I would enjoy even more if it didn’t fucking eclipse the magic system) ‘s magecraft had the same relative strength for magic and technology, but there are two important distinctions;
1. Their ranges are of similar length, but inverted. Magecraft can replicate anything done before, while technology can do things magecraft cannot reach
2. There is a tradeoff between convenience and solidity/training. Magecraft can perform actions with less effort and materials, while technology requires less training and the products of it are more tangible & lasting.
It creates a world where neither ends up obsolete and thus both can stand on their own merits in-universe and out';

'>>92568208
Why not make both strong? Why not make both situationally strong?';

'>>92568208
Basic single-shot rifles exist but they're mostly used by commoners for hunting or to defend against other humans. There are plenty of monsters that are tough enough that bullets can't hurt them, armor can stop bullets entirely, and there are heroes of herculean strength who can probably take a bullet with their bare skin as if they were wearing kevlar.';

'>>92569059
>>92569075
Underrated posts
I don't think retards realize the sort of convoluted background you would need to justify floaty twirly runic energies tied to the fingers and somehow connected to the brain
It would have to be imperceptible, practically higher dimensional bullshit
Kind of like how mind control makes no sense with nothing in-between (unless imperceptible a la transmissions)';

'>>92569059
>Magic is arbitrarily powerful
It has to be, otherwise it's too powerful. Too efficient. How else do martials survive wizards?';

'>>92568286
The god of invention, Gond, actually placed a curse on Toril that makes gunpowder too unstable to use, and even smokepowder is more useful as a bomb than anything else. However, the Harpers do target inventors who threaten the status quo with their creations, owing to their desire to keep society as close to what it was in the time of Myth Drannor, which collapsed almost eight hundred years ago.';

'Guns are stronger generally makes more sense. Even if we ignore the whole "wizard needs to collect a million artifacts to do one little thing" angle in most settings a wizard still needs time to chant or prepare a spell or concentrate because t here has to be SOME limiting factor to magic. In a situation like this someone with a gun can shoot them and end it very quickly. Assuming the wizard is human in the end they still have human reflexes and bullets travel faster than the speed of sound

What you would need to balance this out, is that a smart wizard prepares a bunch of shit ahead of time and tries not to attract too much attention at once because if they get caught unprepared by a bunch of people with guns it's over. They slowly accrue power over time, until someone becomes powerful enough to the point where guns aren't a threat anymore and they either rule covertly from the shadows or start a world calamity';

'>>92568208
Guns are powerful, and magic is powerful. Magic is just more versatile, despite the fact that basically anyone can pick up a gun.';

'>>92568208
I didn't receive my understanding of either from foreigners who hate my entire race, so I don't see them as being in opposition. They are the same thing.';

'>>92569618
>god of invention
>makes gunpowder unstable, preventing invention
I thought the Orc god was supposed to be the dumb one';

'>>92568208
>implying sides';

'>>92570090
Wasn't Avatar largely opposed to the use of old-world technology, though? He shot his brother simply because the guy had to be stopped.';

'>>92568208
Magic guns';

'>>92568930
>why would there be a gunslinger class, anyone can use a gun

>well obviously if you used a musket it would take a minute to load because you're not trained to use it

Woah, almost like there should be way to pursue a type of character who is trained I'm the use of guns beyond the average person';

'>>92570425
in DnD terms that would still be 3 turns of inaction and then you can miss, but I guess you would be good at shooting. And even then it doesn't make sense for it to be a CALSS it should be a SUBCLASS.';

'>>92568208
>which side are you?
The author side.
It is up to me to make or unmake the world as I see fit, the magical Gods themselves are my servant, ready to smite the gun-user no matter how OP gun are against their worshipers.
Wether the gun-worshiper have the time to kill the educated creatures of gods, or the religious fanatic have the magic to Wololo the technological scholar into providing more pain for the pain god is up to me.';

'>>92568208
>>92572493
Also on the author side.';

'>>92568525
>turn invisible
Magic is easy to say, unfathomably hard to set without breaking/handwaving a setting.

Without invisibility counter, all rulers have to be secretive and never be recognizable by anyone who isn't a hardcore loyalist else they'll be assassinated.
There would be a lot of delegation of power, concealing attires of power...etc
Locking doors would become even more important than ever.
Making the spell difficult only reduce the number of people who can kill at will.
Making the spell unpractical only reduce modalities of use.
Making the magic rare make it more important to control it as even simple invisibility can make a dumbass able.

With invisibility counter, the form of this counter will shape the setting.
If you can dispel magic with effort, you need constant dispeller nearby and always doubt the servant who appear from behind the corner.
Basic architecture will be those noisy planks used again ninja
If you can no-effort instant cancel invisibility 10m around with something carried as a ring, those become a necessity for VIP and assassin can never know where a dispel magic can be hidden, needing a way a way to tell how the magic canceler fields are shaped.


And against technology users, the big question is wether invisibility include the full spectrum.';

'>>92568208
There is no gun in my setting, only alchemist fire propelled repeating crossbow.';

'>>92572493
In my games, it's usually implied that elves have invented and use guns when an adversary has high resist stats.
>>92572953
Magic in the Christian worldview makes the most sense. It's demons. End of story. The reason why we don't see magic and psychic abilities is because some Christian goes to church.';

'>>92568208
I have this idea in my head, the general of the Magic World's army has invited the general of the Tech World's army to check out his arsenal. He's trying to explain how great his flying airships are (some can fly at ten knots!) but is insulted because his guest pays more attention to useless trinkets like Decanters of Endless Water';

'>>92568208
In my setting guns are powerful weapons, easily better than bringing a sword or bow, but those weapons can be enchanted, guns can't. So eventually someone with a gun will start running into enemies who have swords that auto-intercept nonmagical projectiles, bows that fire splitting, homing arrows that go through walls, and armor and shields that absorb bullets and fire them back in massive bursts. Guns are useful as a mid level weapon, but that's it.';

'>>92568208
magic is no longer accessible; guns are not yet invented
that's my camp';

'>>92568208
Everything is OP and the flesh is weak.
Bring at least 5 characters.';

'>>92572953
The existence of invisibility makes assassination easier, sure. But a mage would still need a reason to assassinate one.
Guns can shoot people from really far, but you still see celebrities and politicians making public appearances while not wearing helmets and 50 pounds of body armor.
Doubly so when a ruler would be more likely to hire a wizard and pay them for magical services.
And invisibility can also just fall flat if a place has guard dogs.';

'>Magic in Sword & Sorcery
Wizard can call on Krog'm'grog the Flatulent to violate-assassinate the High Chieftain and everyone is afraid of that shit being done to them.
But the Barbarian can kill the Wizard with a well thrown chair.';

'>>92568208
They're about on par with each other, but guns deal more damage while magic has more utility.';

'>>92568286
Literal fantasy CIA zogbots';

'>>92568208
Both are true. Just because I can set 50 guys on fire with a word doesn't mean that I can take fire from a heavy machine gun and expect to come out with all my limbs. The difference is that they've got more guys with guns than I have limbs I can afford to lose.';

'>>92568208
Why do retards love false dichotomies so much?';

'>>92568208
Guns are strong
Magic can change the definition and nature of what is and is not strong';

'>>92568286
>knowing this it is weird to think that people started to homebrew the Gunslinger class
They did that because PF1e came out with a gunslinger class, and the 5e players and especially Matt Mercer, wanted what PF1e had for their campaigns without changing to PF1e. Nobody cares about the Harpers.

>>92568930
>Gunslinger class
>Such a dumb fucking concept. Guns are good because you can teach a fucking peasant who never held anything but a hoe in his hands how to use a weapon who can kill a noble knight in a single shot.
>Like there isn't a bowmen or a sword-guy class. What the fuck even is a gunslinger? A person who can draw his gun real fast and is ferly accurate with it.
In Pathfinder, where the gunslinger class originated, the class is more than just being accurate or being able to wield a gun. They get a variety of tricks and abilities that enhance their gunslinging beyond merely point and shoot, from super fast reloading to shooting around corners, being able to dodge ranged attacks with uncanny ability, and much more. Your average peasant can use a gun easily (especially in PF2e where many of the firearms are now simple or martial weapons), but they cant do any of the special tricks or abilities of the gunslinger class.

And yes there is a sword guy, he's called the fighter, and the bow guy is the ranger or fighter. The classes represent more than just ability to use, but specialization into special tricks and abilities.

>But what about magical guns?
There is a lot you can do with magical guns, from portal pistols, to flaming genie guns, monster parts taxidermied into guns that "shoot" the monsters abilities, all kinds of stuff.
>Is the ammunition enchanted or enhanced with magic?
Yes. PF2e has magic ammunition for its guns. From dealing fire damage and creating difficult terrain via meteor shot, elemental damage bullets, healing bullets,';

'>Magic and guns interfere with one another';

'>>92569995
I mean Mystra the goddess of magic prevents spells beyond level 9, so it's not unheard of for gods to limit things under their domain like that.';

'Just put the magic *in* the guns.';

'Just imagine guns that are enchanted.';

'>>92575855
Solar Shellflower
Item 5
Source: Treasure Vault pg. 39
Price: 160 gp
Usage: held in 2 hands; Bulk: L
Base Weapon: Flintlock Musket

This +1 striking flintlock musket features multiple triangular panels that can be folded out of the stock, like the petals of a tigridia flower, that collect sunlight and feed it into the spark gun's core. All damage dealt by a solar shellflower is fire damage.

Activate [one-action] Interact; Frequency once per day (but see below);
Effect: One of the panels from the solar shellflower detaches and unfurls into a tigridia-shaped construct of flame. For the next 1 minute, whenever you Strike an enemy with the solar shellflower, the construct fires a smaller jet of fire that automatically hits the target, dealing 3d4 additional persistent fire damage or twice that on a critical hit. The solar shellflower usually requires a full day to replenish enough solar energy to recharge this Activation, but if used in an environment with especially strong sunlight, such as in a desert, cliff above the clouds, or near the summer solstice, it can recharge in 1 hour instead.';

'Thundercrasher
Item 5
Source Treasure Vault pg. 39 1.1
Price 155 gp
Usage held in 2 hands; Bulk 2
Base Weapon Blunderbuss

While looking straight down the barrel of this +1 striking blunderbuss, the spark gun's magical core is visible amid several reflectors. All damage dealt by a thundercrasher is sonic damage. On a critical hit, the target must succeed at a Fortitude save against your class DC or be deafened for 1 minute.

Activate [one-action] Interact; Frequency once per hour;
Effect You overload the thundercrasher to emit chaotic sonic frequencies that soften earth and stone. When you next fire the thundercrasher it also partially liquefies any natural earth or stone surfaces within range of its scatter trait, making the area difficult terrain';

'Iris of the Sky
Item 6
Source Guns & Gears pg. 165
Price 240 gp
Usage held in 2 hands; Bulk 2
Base Weapon Jezail

This +1 striking jezail is built from white hot metal and has a ruby fused into the palm wood stock. When the iris of the sky misfires, you take 5 persistent fire damage.

The first firearm of this type came as the result of a gunslinger who entreated an efreeti, wishing for the might of the desert sun. The weapon constantly glows and burns with a brilliant intensity. The firearm has since belonged to an extensive string of users and been replicated several times, though each wielder of the weapon, whether the original or one of its copies, has eventually ended up as a charred husk, slain by fire in battle or unusual accidents that no one could quite explain except, perhaps, the efreet.

Activate [one-action] envision; Frequency once per minute; Effect You focus the solar energy housed in the ruby to release a gout of solar flame instead of a bullet. Make a Strike with the iris of the sky. All damage from this Strike is fire damage and the target takes an additional 1d6 fire damage and 1d6 persistent fire damage.

Activate [two-actions] command, envision (fortune); Frequency once per minute;
Effect You make a wish into the iris of the sky, yearning for it to strike true, and then fire. Strike against a foe with the iris, rolling the attack roll twice and taking the better result. If the attack is a failure, you take 5 persistent fire damage.';

'>Spark Dancer
Item 13
Source Treasure Vault pg. 39
Price 2,900 gp
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Base Weapon Pepperbox

This +2 greater striking pepperbox cycles through several magical cores, swapping in new ones while the previous ones cool. The gun deals fire or electricity damage, alternating with each attack as it rotates cores. Arcadian gunslingers liken the rotating cores to a group of dancers, each taking their turn in the spotlight.

Activate [two-actions] Interact; Frequency once per day;
Effect The spark dancer casts either fireball or lightning bolt, depending on whether the current core would deal fire or electricity damage, as a 7th-level arcane spell (DC 30).';

'Pistol of Wonder
Item 13
Source Guns & Gears pg. 167
Price 3,000 gp
Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk L
Base Weapon Flintlock Pistol

This +2 greater striking flintlock pistol bears strange, jagged markings of erratic design and has an oddly squishy grip. It can be activated to produce a variety of unusual effects.

Activate [two-actions] command, Interact;
Effect Choose a creature within 60 feet and roll a percentile die on the table below to determine the pistol's effect. [important rules info] Once activated, the pistol can't be activated again for 1d4 hours.

A short list of fun effects
3 The target becomes a shiny metal color (bronze, copper, or iron) and any sound or speech becomes tinny and robotic in nature; this effect lasts 1 month.
7–13 A short rod protrudes from the pistol and unfurls a small flag that reads “Bang!”. The pistol can't be fired until the flag is removed, which requires a single Interact action.
31 The pistol casts Tree Shape on you, except you appear as a Medium wooden grave marker bearing your name and the current date; you can't Dismiss the spell for 1 round.
52 Dozens of tattered, nonmagical playing cards burst from the pistol's barrel.
58 The pistol casts Dinosaur Form on you to transform you into a triceratops; the pistol protrudes from the base of your front horn, and you can fire (but not reload) the pistol while in this form.';

'People vastly overestimate how easy it is to hit something far away with a non-scoped gun
Guns are only OP if every gunslinger is unnaturally accurate';

'Does anyone remember the absolute seething that occurred and still does on places like Dragonsfoot when high technology is introduced. Like with the short and not very good Greyhawk 2000 Dragon articles. Someone sat down and wrote their true Greyhawk technology would never advance, you could come back a 1000 years later and everything would look exactly the same and was proud to write that.';

'>>92568208
Game?';

'>>92568314
It finally happened.
We have finally reached the precipice, and have been cast down.
This is the bottom.';

'>>92568208
Magic isn't that powerful but is poorly understood by non magic users, with a lot of slight of hand/smoke and mirrors/other various stage tricks, keep their reputation. That isn't to say magic isn't usefull, far from it, but its more subtle than anything else, and the peon non magicians only respect things that are flashy and loud.';

'>>92568208

The older I get the more I slide to high fantasy.';

'>>92568208
Ed Greenwood, creator of the Forgotten Realms, said that guns are very OP by comparison to things in his setting, but Ed also is open with his opinion of mechanics being secondary to stories. Mechanically, you can hard counter guns and things if you have magic, but everyone else gets hard fucked at anything resembling reasonable levels.';

'>>92573505
Neat. The magic side’s dealt with traditional logistics for so little that they don’t understand the significance of it';

'>>92568208
WoD/Shadowrun rules where magic can and will fuck you up but so will 3 dudes with shotguns unexpectedly showing up.

So you can be a magical single person specialist, but if you get the paramilitary security on your ass then weight of fire alone would bring down Dragons.';

'>>92568208
I have never heard a compelling reason not to do both, especially in worlds where magic (or at least more advanced magic) is uncommon and/or there's an ECM/ECCM arms race going on with magic in warfare. You'd have to be a special kind of asshole to build a castle and not put some kind of insurance around the foundations so someone can't just turn invisible, stroll up your fortifications and cast stone to mud and collapse your curtain wall or cast disintegrate and remove your front door. If that's the case and you have to do things the straightforward way then I'll take cannon over trebuchet any day of the week in the same way that I'd rather have a flintlock pistol than a hand crossbow if I'm shooting from a horse or throw a hand grenade over a fortification instead of a rock.

This also means that you get to treat spellcasters as defensive features, which is fun. Instead of or in addition to finding a way to open the wicket gate, managing to knock off the only mage who can cast fireball is a pretty important thing to do. And then you have the defensive gear, too. You could have the richer militaries equip especially valuable troops with magical pieces of kit that let them cast, say Resist Energy three times a day and become much more insulated against fireballs or cones of cold or whatever the most likely threat is. And this doesn't even touch on the value of being able to do things like prevent infections, create/purify water, seek divine guidance, etc.

I think that it's plenty possible to do this without going full retard but most people don't.';

'>>92568208
what about middle fantasy?';

'>>92568208
Really don't get how it has to be this way and I could hate you for implying that it must be so.
Spells come in all kinds of forms, can have varied effects and range from subtle to tremendous in power and application, but drain magical power and need time and effort.
Guns come in different sizes, fire at varied ranges and even arcs, can punch through armor or bombard entire fields and use different types of bombs. You can still run out of ammunition and are beholden to the laws of physics, and they need to be maintained and are loud.
In my homebrew that I will surely finish one day, there is nothing stopping a dedicated gunslinger from picking up some spells and you can even enchant your ranged weapon with some of them. And absolutely nothing stops a spellcaster from taking some kind of firearm with them.
Don't know why people should think they can't complement each other or why there shouldn't be some kind of arms race between them.';

'>>92568286
run over harpers with your steam engine they literally glow in the dark';

'>>92568220
Now I want a railgun that's just an iron pipe with directional repelling glyphs painted on both sides.';

'Tech handily beating magic is pretty frequently tied to gay mudcore aesthetics. You can almost already hear the author parable banging on about the march of progress and how there's no need for silly mysticism in a changing world.
Like as though spells wouldn't evolve too. It's also frequently not historically accurate. We didn't build the first boomtube and then instantly everyone just got owned by them forever. They were shitty and only supplemented existing tactics for hundreds of years.';

'>>92578885
People just lack creativity or are cynical in particular ways and would rather not invest time into legitimately exploring ideas that run contrary to their own or take too much effort.';

'>>92568208
I follow the Arcanum idea and magic and technology cannot co-exist because one breaks the other to a fundamental level';

'>>92578266
>Don't know why people should think they can't complement each other or why there shouldn't be some kind of arms race between them.
Because guns are representative of technology's ability to dethrone elitism while magic is generally reserved purely for a select few who either are elite or quickly make themselves such. If magic is something common enough that every village has a hedge mage making potions then the theming of guns unseating the old guard knights loses some of it's vigor';

'>>92577088
Ed Greenwood wrote himself as Elminster in the most shameless and open fashion to live out his power fantasies and incest fetishes and nerds just ate that shit up.

He's a fucking hack.

Read all his books and enjoyed them a lot.';

'>>92579165
That's ridiculous. Way better when they have magical tech.';

'Spells are already like invisible guns
But who constructed them?';

'>>92568208
I choose to have the Magic Bullet.
https://youtu.be/AqHQDRqzxlQ';

'>>92577088
That’s because Dee en Dee magic is literally robotic to the point of fair play.

The world is literally a game machine, and at times (like in Mystara) high level wizards learn this to their horror, that they’re just pawns on a gameboard.

But make no mistake, the alleged occult ability to spontaneously combust or kill someone from the safety of your basement outweighs any gun, even snipers.

Dee en Dee magic isn’t like that. Magic as attempted in real life was more brutal.';

'>>92579236
Magic is like a knight going up to a hobo with a shotgun and getting their face blown apart. If you’re the only one with a musket, you may as well be a wizard.';

'>>92573004
comic source?';

'>>92568208
I'm on the side of "why does this come about in your setting" because that's all the matters. Things in your setting need a reason for being the way they are.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Guns need a reason to be not invented but developed. Random shit gets invented, but if there's a need for it then it gets developed and improved. Guns are unwieldy in their early forms, a different but hardly better weapon than any other projectile like bows.

So if you have magic that far outstrips the ability of crude firearms then there's not much reason to improve them. They'd remain crude and obscure novelties. If however a faction, let's say dwarves, were unable to use that kind of magic, then the opposite would happen because they would have need to replicate things like long range explosions without magic, so they would develop a firearm until it can compete. But their firearms would still be pre-industrial and hand crafted, possibly with emphasis on a big boom that can't fire to frequently.

What should be considered is guns weren't developed naturally in our world like a video game tech tree. They were a fluke. Military tactics of a period in Europe at a time bounced between strategies to counter other strategies until it landed on one where the counter happened to be cumbersome hand cannons, which is how they then had a need to make improvements of. Then later the industrial revolution made all other weaponry completely obsolete.

So what of these factors does your setting not have? The guns are what you want them to be, but then you need to give a reason why they are that way. Were they meant to counter magic, or does magic make them irrelevant?';

'>>92568208
I think that neither side is conducive to a fun setting that can have both. I think the existence of magic in a setting informs the power level of every aspect of the world it's in. Otherwise in world with [Fireball] you would be ruling that anybody wearing metal armor now has superheated burns.

In these fantastical worlds firearms aren't just taken from a portal linked to the domains of Smith and Wesson, they're something that is a product of the world they're in and should synergize with the level of magic that's there.

Even if you don't have magic armor, the fact that it can stand up to magical attacks implies there is SOME level of magic there. Likewise one can say the same for any firearms manufactured.

It's just a new weapon for a new age. Louder, stronger, more complex than a bow, less convenient than an equivalent spell or a cantrip, devastating in the right hands, give it to an artificer or warlock and it's their tinker project or pact weapon. Enchant the barrel for +1 or cheap out and get your silvered bullets. It does nobody favors to limit yourself for the sake of parallelizing fantastical firearm evolution to our own';

'>>92572953
>pic
>being publicly associated with a recently killed person
Shit assassin';

'>>92574923
They grew up on the Hegelian dialectic. That's why they hate the Bible so much because it says to reject dichotomies as fake and gay. In fact, the one entity known as the Devil is openly revealed to use two personae to fool you.';

'>>92580626
>That's why they hate the Bible so much because it says to reject dichotomies as fake and gay
>you either embrace Jesus or burn forever';

'>>92580360
Humans are barbaric monkeys addicted to kinetic energy so guns were an inevitable and explosively demanding product.

But what blows my mind is how long it took for people to recognize the uses of gunpowder. It was discovered and rediscovered numerous times in China over the course of centuries.

This implies dissemination of information is trickier the further back in history you go.';

'>>92580670
Gunpowder wasn't the limiting factor, metallurgy was. Even if you can design a gun it doesn't mean much if the only metal you could make it out of would likely just blow in your face (literally). It's not a coincidence that guns and plate armor started being developed right around the same time in Europe, even though it'd take over a century for guns to become a credible threat to armor (so it wasn't necessarily an arms race thing)';

'>>92580626
christianity is probably the second most black&white morality religion other than the zoroastrianism it stole the idea from.

>Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."';

'>>92580827
Reminder that Zoroastrianism believes all evil in the universe came from a gooning sesh
— “When Ahriman, the "Spirit of Aridity and Death" and "Lord of Lies", sought to destroy the world, he engaged in self-sodomy. That caused an "explosion of evil power" and resulted in the birth of a host of evil minions.”';

'>>92581204
This is so fucking stupid, lmfao. Why do we venerate the beliefs of the past again? Because of how old they are?';

'>>92581433
Because they're true.';

'>>92580620
You wouldn't accuse an poor shocked old woman of being an assassin? She knew the victim and was talking to her right before she was poisoned (a luck in her rambling she had yet to consume the poisoned tea herself).

Beware the old doing a job where most die young.

>>92574343
>But a mage would still need a reason to assassinate one.
Seriously? When were "reasons to assassinate someone" ever lacking in any world involving human?
You said yourself mage need money for their mage tower.

Guns are not comparable and are the sums of a lot of limitation and constraint
- shooting a gun immediately reveal your position, movie silencer are overrated
- you want to shoot from as close as possible but that's what is hardest to do
- if invisible-capable mage are as common as gun owner in the US, you worsen the problem

>And invisibility can also just fall flat if a place has guard dogs.
Feasible but it's a lot of work with limitation.
Dogs don't really make good guard, definitely not alone. They were breed mainly for to hunt or harass non-human prey, they are cheap-loyal.
Maybe if a dog can be trained to "bark at anything invisible" without confusing with anyone else walking around.

Side note: Invisibility is the one magic that would encourage assassins to climb everything, maybe you could see a visible grapple in time.';

'>>92568208
Neither. Both gun and magic are quite powerful. Guns are a good bit more deadly than lower level spells, but magic has versatility in utility. Higher level magic is obviously more deadly than a simple gun, but you'd be an idiot to use a simple unenchanted gun and/or non-magical bullets at that point.';

'>>92569059
>>92569075
>>92569411
Its literally called The Gods
If a setting has a god of magic (like the forgotten realms) then that god is responsible for the shape of magic.
Even in a setting like A Song of Ice and Fire, Magic is granted to mortals via barely understood actions. Something causes a shadow monster to come into being and kill someone but the full mechanism behind it and not understood.';

'>>92580626
>That's why they hate the Bible so much because it says to reject dichotomies as fake and gay.
Yeah, the religion that treats a person who dedicates their life to charity and altruism but didn't pray the same as a serial killer and rapist is really big on destroying dichotomies';

'>>92581756
>Even in a setting like A Song of Ice and Fire, Magic is granted to mortals via barely understood actions.
Magic in asoiaf is explicitly a cruel pedophilic force of nature that suspiciously covets sacrifice and suffering, or blood. It loves when you sacrifice a baby, fruitlessly. It is no coincidence the old gods were worshiped by the CHILDREN of the forest. Sorcerers are creepy pervs castrating orphans for a 1-in-10 chance of something actually happening. Magic is like a sick and twisted observer who entertains humans, and humans in turn entertain it.';

'>>92582044
>t. grey rat';

'>>92581756
>Its literally called The Gods
Clearly “the gods” are alien scientists by any other name—likely so unfathomably advanced and higher dimensional they may as well be gods.

This is also why I hate, fucking HATE human-sized or human-shaped deities. Fuck that.';

'>>92582123
Based. God is more alien and inhuman and unfathomable than any gay ass humanoid pagan god like Thor.';

'>>92568208
>Magic and Technology are fundamentally at every level
>Magic is Strong
>Technology is Strong
>A combat medic build with an SMG is just as viable as a mage casting fireballs.\
>melee is also viable somehow still
What system does this? I initially tried with GURPS and left a sad, disappointed man.';

'>>92582244
Light, but you're not gonna like it.';

'>>92582257
Why what's so bad about it?';

'>>92582491
It's just legally distinct Destiny. Literally Destiny with name swaps.';

'>>92582244
>Magic and Technology are fundamentally at every level
Whoops meant fundamentally opposed. No magi-tech
>>92582495
Ok nevermind you're right, I won't like it';

'Gun by themselves aren't that powerful but the fact you can mass produce them easily and each gun can make a kid just as dangerous as a seasoned wizard make the guns insanely OP.';

'>>92582244
Shadowrun isn't too far off from this.';

'>>92568220
>Magic and tech are one and the same.
First post worst post';

'>>92568208
which traditional game are you discussing?';

'>>92583337
This kills the OP.
And half the catalog.';

'>>92569059
why does something more sophisticated need to be employed behind the scenes? what does that mean?';

'>>92569075
what do you mean? nature doesn't pursue anything.';

'>>92569411
only a retard thinks justification is necessary or desirable';

'>>92569545
what do you think arbitrarily means?';

'>>92569874
protection from missiles.';

'>>92570425
no there shouldn't';

'>>92572953
True Sight is only 6 hero points, and anyone can buy it. you can even make it cheaper by attaching it to an item.';

'>>92568208
I actually have a funny instance of this being a thing, but only conditionally.

In one of the Eastern Nations, which is ruled by Sorcerers, they possess a secret and more advanced form of magic which they call The Mysteries, but one of the rules of the Mysteries of War is that if you EVER use your powers to perform manual labor, it immediately drains you. The Sorcerers don't really know the specifics, but it uses the same amount of calories that doing the labor by hand would. Ergo, a Sorcerer of the MoW could simply construct a building out of its raw materials instantly, but he would drop stone dead about halfway through because one guy manually assembling the building would take months of effort and thus hundreds of thousands of calories that his body simply does not have.

Because of these limitations though, they are able to use magic to kill people very very effectively. A Sorcerer with the Mysteries of War could situationally be worth hundreds or thousands of warriors. When gunpowder arrived, it was initially a novelty, and then saw some military applications, but it never really took off, not because gunpowder wasn't effective, but because one of the easiest things for sorcerers to do is set things on fire at a distance. This was eventually resolved by using wooden containers from anarcane trees (anarcane meaning they cannot be effected by magic) but it still makes it a dangerous proposition.

The neighbors of this country have basically no magic, so their only choice was to lean into firearms in the hopes that they could balance the scales. It did not and they were conquered--but then they found that while guns are not great for killing sorcerers on a battlefield, they are REALLY good at killing sorcerers in the middle of the street while they're walking to the tailor, and now there's a rebellion who call themselves the Aldukhan, or "The Smoke," both a reference to the gunpowder, and the way they vanish after striking.';

'>>92580669
Read again. You pass through the fire, or you land in the Lake of Fire for taking the Mark of the Beast. Please stop making atheists look dumber than they already are.
>>92580827
Satan becomes Lucifer, the dark one becomes the false light one. I don't see what's so difficult about "both sides are evil".
>>92581433
Pagans worshipped demons who're as real as the data transfer in the air is real.
>>92581769
Egotism or God, it's not that difficult. Besides, humans can't be truly good. Nothing humans make can be good enough which is why we need a Man on the other side.
All I'm saying is, isn't it strange that there's only one religion worshipping the world destroyer and games are about humans uniting to start a war against a force that comes from outside?';

'>>92583546
Pretty good stuff anon. You should be a writer';

'>>92568286
>Accidentally set my milk to boil too long
>Shit's ruined
>Put it away for a while
>Forget about it
>Notice that it keeps much longer than the rest of my milk
>Go to repeat the process
>The local musician kicks down my door and puts a crossbow bolt in my chest and lights my house on fire with a spell
>All I can say is "W-Why?" as he leaves
>"Sorry, your reckless advancement of technology can't continue"
>Die and go to hell for my transgressions against Good because the harpers are CG';

'>>92583369
>>92583378
lol';

'>>92568208
Take the patrician options
>Magically infused guns are OP resulting in magical armor to ward off those weapons. but are susceptible like any other armor to fire arms, but those magical guns are useless in close combat.';

'>>92579236
which is only a problem if you want that theme.';

'>>92580326
you can kill someone from your basement with d&d magic';

'>>92580360
they don't need a reason.';

'>>92582123
yeah, because you're trash';

'>>92582203
no';

'>>92582244
prowlers and paragons';

'>>92586867
don't samefag';

'>>92587055
answer me.';

'>>92588162
Did
>>92588170
you know
>>92588171
that you
>>92588187
can respond
>>92588194
to multiple
>>92588200
posts
>>92588210
at a time
>>92588217
faggot?';

'>>92569874
Mary Gentle's 'Grunts' had an interesting dynamic. Guns were profoundly non-magical and could rip through most of not any form of supernatural protection, BUT by not containing any magic whatsoever it meant they were actually absurdly vulnerable to the most simple "Fail Weapon" spell. Talismans could get round that to a degree, of course.';

'>>92588540
That’s silly. All magic’d have to do is set up two fields instead of just one';

'Bump';

'>>92580345
I was going to say you don't want to know, but said artist actually made a STORY with both Mage and Guns.
(to explain pic, the guy on the ground is a gunslinger trying to get a hit on a time-ninja who normally move faster than bullet, they are not common and very very OP).

Pic from >>92573004 is from "Does Not Play Well with Others"
Current pic is from "Errant Story"
It's a really hard sell because it is an insufferably old webcomic with poor paneling and tooooo muuuuuuch text.
But the world building is surprisingly consistent (up to a point).';

'>>92591288
There, have the next page on wether he succeed.';

'>>92568208
Define high fantasy.

A machine gun would effortlessly take down Gandalf.';

'>>92568208
this image is aggressively unfunny';

'>>92569545
Read a well done magic system like the one in the mistborn series, for example';

'>>92583369
In our three dimensions of space, you can improvise guns all you want, barrels and metals and gunpowder and all, but for some reason the [Fireball] spell ONLY shoots from your index finger and ONLY when you scream “CUM DIABLO!” like a fucking idiot. It also requires you smoosh bat poop and sulphur together into a ball as the main component, and no matter how large (or how small) the poop-sulfur ball mixture is, the fireball is STILL the same size and does EXACTLY the same amount of damage every single time, and always explodes when it reaches something, always.

Who made it this way? It’s like some invisible machine and you’re poking at invisible buttons, by way of silly actions.';

'>>92591410
The ‘gods beyond the fourth wall’ are responsible for it.';

'>>92575634
so what im getting from this is pf > dnd.
Who would've guessed, dnd keeps being the fucking cancer of trpg';

'>>92568208
You can have guns being as good as in real life before enchantments, magic get as retarded in DnD and beat them once the wizard reaches enough level, and still have some uses for your +2 axe of fire because who the fuck wastes all the needed cartridges on a wood golem or animated ballistic blobs.
I mean, an axe in the torso kills anyone, a fireball is pretty much a grenade and there is no reason to not use hunting rifles against a dragon.';

'>>92568220
truly the best of both worlds';

'>>92580792
Metallurgy was absolutely not a limiting factor for Asia in the 15th-16th centuries. They'd been making hand canons for hundreds of years up to that point, which have similar metallurgical concerns for the barrel, as well as actual cannons. Don't forget that gunmetal is basically just brass; most civilizations have had that mastered for like 2,000 years. Later hand cannons also tend to use a serpentine lever, or basically a matchlock firing system. Frankly, the biggest design change made between late hand cannons and arquebuses was the use of a stock instead of a pole, which I think is funny.';

'undefined';

'>>92568286
god damn I hate the harpers so much
Can we have a harper hate thread?';

'>>92568286
Which is why I like living in the real world.';

'>>92592936
Guess that could be a sub-plot here
>”we’re all about freedom and individuality!”
>”but if you try to expand your kingdom or keep your technology we’ll fucking kill you with our secret conspiratorial organisation!”
Chaotic Stupid at its finest';

'>>92581572
>You said yourself mage need money for their mage tower
And killing the king while invisible doesn't suddenly give you all of the king's money
>shooting a gun immediately reveal your position
So? The target is still dead. If killing them is all that matters then it's easy. The fact you don't see it more despite how common guns are is evidence that major assassinations are rare.
This applies even more to an invisible mage who would get stopped by something as simple as two guards standing next to a closed door.';

'>>92574343
>The existence of invisibility makes assassination easier, sure. But a mage would still need a reason to assassinate one.
One, that’s irrelevant to the utility of invisibility. Two, it’s the fucking Middle Ages for politics and economics. Those give more than enough reasons for killing people
>Guns can shoot people from really far, but you still see celebrities and politicians making public appearances while not wearing helmets and 50 pounds of body armor.
The difference between a sniper shooting a politician at a meet-up and a wizard stabbing a politician in their sleep is the difference between being run over in the street and being run over in your LIVING ROOM. One requires not too much effort, is easily foreseeable, and can be planned around easily. The other requires far more time, effort, and consideration to avoid
>Doubly so when a ruler would be more likely to hire a wizard and pay them for magical services.
Invisibility still has consequences then
>And invisibility can also just fall flat if a place has guard dogs.
There are ways around it. Like sleep spells';

'>>92583337
Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition. When the game is not stated, it is Dungeons and Dragons Fifth Edition, the role-playing game that is so ubiquitous that literally any other game is the exception that needs specifying.';

'>>92568208
>guns don't exist in my world and character-wielded magic is moderately powerful albeit fickle';

'>>92583315
Shittiest take';

'>>92568208
My magic users have zero compunctions about using weapons. It's just that there's nothing any machine can do that magic cannot do better and cheaper.';

'>>92598186
>And killing the king while invisible doesn't suddenly give you all of the king's money
Are you seriously pretending to be that stupid out of spite?
Another king if not the brother or the next in line would hire you to kill the king.

>So?
Propensity to murder is directly proportional to the likelihood of getting away with it.

Chance to get away with a noisy gun? Low. Even if you drop the gun to look like a normal person you have to avoid leaving any witness.
Change to get away with a silent magic? Near total, there cannot be a witness at any point unless you pile up magic limitation & counters, more than most fantasy have.

Guess the king will have to learn to sleep with several guards constantly watching him, they can't even go to the privy alone because invisibility spell is the one magic that make it easier than going ninja and tore someone a new asshole.
https://www.ancientpages.com/2019/12/15/dwarf-ninja-ukifune-jinnais-toilet-assassination-of-uesugi-kenshin/';

'>>92600709
>>92570260
Have a proper webm.
To be honest Outlaw star shouldn't count, anything is magic when it come to soft-SF.
If at least if was hard-SF';

'>>92601022
You wouldn't use a magic-gun on a catgirl would you?';

'>>92601038
Obviously I also have the (magic) black hole gun, no SF here, move along';

'undefined';

'>>92568208
what everyone else does because it obviously makes the most sense. guns are a tool for the untrained masses who work normal jobs to be able to fight back against trained fighters. your average wizard is only slightly above the caliber of another tool in battle and as such can be easily killed by someone shooting him in the head. high level wizards are hard to kill just as any other important figure with power are hard to kill, just for a different reason. as firearm tech advanced the only losers in the race are the dumbasses who spent all that time learning how to use a bow or sword just to get shot or turned into piss';

'>>92601090
Now THIS is the good shit';

'>>92601153
Firearms were used on the same battlefields as swordsmen for hundreds of years. There was no "we invented the gun and now the swordlets are seething".';

'>>92580241
The caster gun rules';

'>>92601038
I'd use something on her but I wouldn't call it magic.';

'>>92569059
>something even more sophisticated than a gun would need to be employed behind the scenes.
Thats everything within reality . Its classified as magic because our understanding of those processes are basically zero, not because you assume it doesn't have any fundamental principles.';

'>>92602512
That’s not the kind of sophisticated he’s talking about. Spells as they work in fiction come across more like devices than physics. They’re too constructed in nature. Clearly of intelligent design.

Mermaids would -not- evolve to look like mermaids. They’d be grotesquely fat and blubbery and hairless and shark teethed deep sea abominations, by way of evolutionary demands. More serpentine than fishlike.

A mermaid that actually looks like a 10/10 supermodel mermaid? Fish tail and big boobs and bosom and luscious red hair and singing voice and all? Nature wouldn’t afford that.';

'>>92603070
>That’s not the kind of sophisticated he’s talking about. Spells as they work in fiction come across more like devices than physics. They’re too constructed in nature. Clearly of intelligent design.
Thats like saying gravity clearly has an intelligent design because humans have been able to intuit enough of their environment to create slings. Spells come from tapping into a supernatural force, supernatural by definition; something beyond even the vague understanding of commonly accepted laws or even outright running contrary to several more fundamental assumptions. Its 'magic' because it contradicts mundane reality-based assumptions that are the majority in most settings. A fireball being consistent doesn't stop it being a rare type of process compared to those experienced by most humans in nature. And thats all magic is, an abnormal experience that cannot be explained.

>Mermaids would -not- evolve
Oftentimes they don't, and when they do its usually because the setting is such that they didn't come about through pure evolution.';

'>My setting has guns and gunslinger and it's normal generic fantasy but it has guns and they're so much better than normal weapons and getting shot once instantly kills you
Boring
>The first source of technological enhancements in a setting is an insane cyborg living in another dimension that hands you an arm that turns into a sword drill on par with ancient artifacts of impossible power
Based';

'>>92585099
>You pass through the fire, or you land in the Lake of Fire for taking the Mark of the Beast. Please stop making atheists look dumber than they already are.
It's you who need to read it again

Luke 16

>22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.

>23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

>24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

>25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

>26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

>27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,

>28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

>29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’';

'>>92603180
You’re still not getting it.';

'>>92601038
>tfw no immortal Ctarl-Ctarl gf
aaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH';

'>>92592809
>15th-16th centuries
During which time guns were made in Asia and Europe. Guns were made in the late 13th to early 14th centuries.';

'>>92603180
>Thats like saying gravity clearly has an intelligent design because humans have been able to intuit enough of their environment to create slings.
That’s just retarded, anon.
Math on the other hand…';

'>>92568208
>magic is unfathomably powerful in my setting
>wizards use guns because putting two slugs in someone's chest is way less effort than casting a magic missile';

'>>92604833
That pic's kinda silly.
>Why should what's really out there have corresponded meaningfully to what was going on in his mind?
Because the function of the mind is to comprehend the world. Everything about logic is only true because it corresponds to reality. Everything we intuit is based on real things. It's not that our logic mysteriously matches with causality. We derived logic from being able to observe causality.';

'>>92607019
You’re kinda silly.';

'>>92603180
Read >>92591410

Magic in most settings is blatantly beep-boop-beep. Dungeons & Dragons is closer to science-fiction under a coating of stylized fantasy. It’s button-pressingly robotic and confiningly compartmentalized as sin. Its physics is even meant to be “fair play” for the sake of the game.

All fantasy fictions are shades of that to some degree, and Star Trek definitely isn’t science-fiction to the sufficiently educated physicist who knows better.

All I’m saying is fiction breaks down the more you poke at it, analyze it, and realize it’s “convenient” in the sense that it’s all a fucking story to *entertain*.

Even religion is just make-belief that’s entertained to the point of bloody warfare and indecent savagery.

>>92603180
>and when they do its usually because the setting is such that they didn't come about through pure evolution.
Either they came about naturally, or they came about artificially, it’s one or the other; there isn’t exactly a third alternative to be had here, and the former precedes the latter (the artificial can absolutely be argued as natural).

If they (stereotypical mermaids) weren’t created under evolution alone, or were created by “the goddess of the seven seas”, then that’s a case of intelligent, or artificial design.

Nature doesn’t entertain the imaginative bullshit of intelligent life. It only gives intelligent life the tools to entertain their own imaginations.';

'>>92601058
>damn Gene you turned her into meat paste, where did you get that #4 caster shell?
>I videotaped a hot ancient witch in her secret sauna retreat lair to give to two other horny warlocks but then she blew us up with a bomb spell built into the videotape';

'>>92568286
I don't know why this fanfic meme is regurgitated so often on /tg/ but I don't see it anywhere else thankfully';

'Guns are gay
Magic is even gayer';

'>>92602512
>>92603180
>>92607304
Consider the following:
Our science rely on two irreconcilable models of physics and assume 80% of the galaxy is made of "dark matter" we can't see and some "dark energy" we can't figure out how it work.

Also it might turn completely wrong due to newer data.

The magic was the science you made along the way.';

'>>92568208

Why not have both be equally overpowered as shit?';

'>>92580360
>Things in your setting need a reason for being the way they are.
Someone fucking gets it. You can't just add shit willy-nilly to a setting because if it doesn't line up with the way we naturally expect things to go we immediately put it under scrutiny to try and figure out how and why it functions in the setting. When the answer is "it shouldn't" the only way it gets forgiven is for working within the actual themes or general authorial intent of the work. If it doesn't do that either then you've ruined the suspension of disbelief for your game/movie/book, the player can't invest themselves when anything can happen for any reason without being beholden to a set of rules or conventions.';

'>>92604833
Earth is a colony and humans were designed.';

'>>92611622
At this point in time I 100% believe it';

'>>92600998
>Another king if not the brother or the next in line would hire you to kill the king.
At which point the idea of 'every ruler ever would hide themselves at all times' doesn't actually play out. But your heir could already poison you.
>Change to get away with a silent magic?
It's not silent magic. It's invisibility magic. Something being invisible doesn't make it silent. Your target screaming and flailing as you stab his neck while invisible isn't silent.
>Guess the king will have to learn to sleep with several guards constantly watching him
Why? How does the invisible man open the one door into a room without the guards watching the door mysteriously open or close?
If the king is that paranoid, he can also get a guard dog or two. Because again, it's invisibility, not silence, and the dogs will hear and smell someone creeping around the king's room at night. That's not even something dogs need to be particularly trained to do, as anyone who has met a dog in real life can attest to.

You're drastically overestimating invisibility and are treating it more akin to intangibility or teleportation, where any and all physical obstacles are mysteriously bypassed purely by the sake of nobody being able to see you.';

'>>92575796
>setting has steampunk power armor';

'>>92568208
Not having guns in a fantasy setting is just an extremely poor and limiting idea unless you're going for something like an iron age aesthetic.
Think of the potential for reneissance style handgunner units or weird magical ammunition.';

'>>92568220
>Magic and tech are one and the same.
This. A sword is technology. An enchanted sword is magitech.';

'>>92604644
The arquebus doesn't predate the early 15th century. They'd been making handgonnes/hand cannons prior in both Europe and Asia, which was my point, yes.';

'>>92613041
Retards don’t want to get this though.

Shit novels like Dresden Files tells its readers that magic and technology don’t go together—and yet wizards are using devices like wands and staves.

The fucking WHEEL is technology.

The whole magic vs sci/tech thing is based around the inability to detect nuance.';

'>>92613300
True.';

'>>92612972
The vast majority of the world's history was lived without guns, and there is no problem with the majority of fantasy reflecting that.

What is unusual is the attitude of not having guns when all of the other technologies that allowed guns are available and it's obviously the right time period. This is an ideological problem. The modern world is in large part built on the (ridiculous) idea that guns were a sea change in how wars were fought, and not centuries of small developments which occurred as part of the same that included armor and swords and spears and every other kind of weapon. Guns did not appear out of nowhere and shock anybody except like, the Aztecs and the Zulu.';

'Speaking of magic guns & invisibility.

>>92612907
>At which point the idea of 'every ruler ever would hide themselves at all times' doesn't actually play out.
If we assume a setting where invisibility spell force secretive societies ruled through plenty of delegates, you'd pay awesome money just to know who else is moving pawns (then assassinate them).
Btw, having moats, big walls, plenty of guards and dogs would kinda play against secrecy.

>It's not silent magic. It's invisibility magic. Something being invisible doesn't make it silent. Your target screaming and flailing as you stab his neck while invisible isn't silent.
No systematic noise from someone stabbed in the chest/poisoned/choked, an invisible assassin could even come in front, slicing vocal cord without "that fancy move".

More alternative than GUNSHOT THAT'S HEARD FROM A KILOMETER AROUND THE CASTLE.

>Why? How does the invisible man open the one door into a room without the guards watching the door mysteriously open or close?
First: "sealing every room the king enter" is no different from needing 24/7 guards watching the king shit.
Second: nothing prevent the assassin's from entering earlier, wait, kill, then leave by a window opening because "the king want fresh air".
You can even make it look like natural death.

>You're drastically overestimating invisibility and are treating it more akin to intangibility or teleportation
You drastically underestimate how many of our defense rely solely on direct sight & witness.
With such magic you don't even need to wait the night to climb walls.
You don't even need to be disguised to poison food.
Go ahead and rethink every single architecture.
Go make every single parquet/windows/doors noisy.
Go order every servant/guard to walk side by side like wall of meat to "bump into invisible assassin".
Go make your king paranoid of every single noise.

I don't know why you even argue.
We both know you need magical-counter to broken OP magic and invisibility is broken OP.';

'>>92569545
A modern military has literally no way of dealing with a super-humanly intelligent reality warper who can teleport wherever they want, find out where people are with a spell and then kill them from a distance, summon self replicating monsters that can't be harmed with mundane weapons, mind control high ranking government officials, shapeshift, predict the future, stop time. Those are all things your average run of the mill high level dnd wizard can do. Eragon shielded himself and his friends from a mutli-gigaton antimatter explosion. Rand Al Thor was creating and destroying timelines to win an argument with the big bad of his series.

Modern Earth can't compete with High Fantasy.';

'>>92614704
Exactly. You have to arbitrarily curb it.';

'>>92568815
>I cast 9mm';

'>>92591410
The wizard who created the spell made it that way in the same way that a pistol chambered in 9mm only properly functions when loaded with 9mm ammo and will perform in the way each time because it was designed that way by some guy. Have you considered reading anything at all.';

'>>92607304
Go back to making Stanley’s Parable 3 you obtuse faggot';

'>>92568208
Magic is rare and powerful. Most people can't achieve magic beyond 3rd level and those that can make it there take decades and rely on good genes. Guns are strong ranged options but are expensive and protected though a series of contracts and magic making their proliferation slow. They are constantly evolving to incorporate magic and counter other weapons. The latter is more true in my setting but it's rare. Most of the time a practicing mage can at best equal the power of a gunman using a firebolt or similar spell but high end mages can take out dozens.';

'guns are magic';

'>>92613300
>Dresden Files
You didn’t read the book, faggot.
The reason why magic and technology are incapable of working together is because magic actively harms it, with one character suggesting that magic passively creates entropy';

'>>92618688
That's still massively retarded. I guess wheels just don't work then?';

'>>92620124
Post-WW2 technology to be exact, when everything went digital and VERY electronic. In previous times the most magic would do is curdle milk or make warts grow, but introduce those small changes to a bigger or more articulate system and Chaos Theory ensues';

'>>92591410
>Who made it this way?
A spellcaster who created and proliferated that exact spell formula? Honestly your whole complaint is fucked by the simple existence of Metamagic, magic items, spell-like abilities, and the fact D&D encourages fluffing spells to preference within reason.

It's not that this combination of somatic+verbal+material components is the only way to cast Fireball, it's just the version that became commonplace. Likely after centuries of people optimizing the spell to be as efficient as possible.';

'>>92620154
That’s still very, very retarded.';

'>>92568208
False dichotomy.
>People are weak and weapons are strong';

'>>92620709
>A spellcaster who created and proliferated that exact spell formula?
Are you really going to lay the blame of arbitrary autism on the shoulders of the wizard? Really? That’s not very wizardly, to do something so inefficiently. Magic is more magical when it’s discovered not made. See Jack Vance’s dying earth—where magic in its past is/was constructed, rediscovered, and starts off as base math/science. Wizards in DnD are arbitrarily creative, or their version of physics is inherently arbitrary (it IS a game) to the point where their creations cannot be made non-arbitrarily/whimsically, which still implies an intelligence (the gods, etc, perhaps, if not the author behind the fourth wall) is enforcing such arbitrary-ness.

Everything >>92607304 said isn’t wrong about nature not entertaining your imaginatively arbitrary bullshit. You do that yourself. Why the actual fuck would nature just form a statue of a Buddha? Why would nature just form a conveniently shaped magic system? They’re both indistinguishably constructed.

>Honestly your whole complaint is fucked by the simple existence of Metamagic
That’s literally just science. Do you think quantum mechanics wouldn’t be hellishly meta to past persons? People couldn’t even comprehend or just get behind the sort of shit Democritus proposed.

It's not that this combination of somatic+verbal+material components is the only way to cast Fireball, it's just the version that became commonplace
“When everyone’s super, no one will be”. Congratulations, you’ve lost the magic. Hopefully they’re just poking at something they barely understand to remedy that.

>Likely after centuries of people optimizing the spell to be as efficient as possible
Except they’re not efficient. If they were efficient; they wouldn’t be arbitrary or balanced for the sake of the game.

Christ.';

'>>92620747
How? It’s pretty adequately explained, and no-one goes about breaking that rule like its nobody’s business';

'>>92612950
>steampunk
>sleek
choose one';

'>>92607304
Kill yourself Clarke you fucking nigger';

'>>92620832
Because everything in existence is science in some way, and technology is literally just applied science. Making a campfire is science. A stick, is technically a tool/technology. A wizard’s wand or staff is by default a piece of science/technology. If anything works at all, or happens at all, it is science. If you don’t understand it, or if it goes against present scientific understanding, then it’s merely a matter of nuance.';

'>>92620850
>they hated him because he told them the truth';

'>>92620960
They hated him because he was a fedora topper who couldn’t conceive of background sources, self-aggrandising fuck';

'>>92620951
This isn’t a matter of technological distinction, it’s a matter of low level entropy fucking with higher amounts of technology reliant on electronic systems. Not everything is related to your Third Law persecution complex, and that includes Dresden Files magic';

'>>92620970
>esl rage';

'>>92621034
>you’re a retard
>OOO MAI GAWD EE ES ELLLL
Thanks for proving my point';

'>>92620989
That’s still retarded when magic would itself be more sophisticated and artificially considerate than human technology to even justify its existence. Magic is practically ‘alive’ like artificial intelligence.';

'>Why the actual fuck would nature just form a statue of a Buddha? Why would nature just form a conveniently shaped magic system? They’re both indistinguishably constructed.

He makes a good point anons';

'>>92621068
I’m sorry, do the words just go through both ears without any registration in the middle? Let me spell it out for you;
In Dresden Files, Magic is antithetical to Very Modern Technology because Magic messes with electronic systems, NOT because they’re “different” in some way. Understand?';

'>>92621082
No, he doesn’t. It’s like asking why would nature form fissile material';

'>>92621110
Nature forms our tools to make art, retard. Even the mind’s eye is a tool. Magic is only magic if you consider it to be magic. And no, nature would not form a marble statue of Jesus. Nature would not just form physics that conveniently lends itself to the human fingers / fucking childish superpowers. Similarly so, religion is childish and naive and nature wouldn’t build that for you.';

'>>92621094
That’s still retarded. Especially when wizards are associated with technology in general. Everything wizards do in Dresden verse can be summarized as occult science/tech.';

'>>92621136
>you see, magic fundamentally harms modern technology and thus they can’t be used together
>but it’s still tech!!
I give up. You are a complete fucking retard and no amount of explanations will drill that into the bowling ball you call a skull';

'>>92621151
Yeah, you’re not seeing it. Keep sucking off Butcher though.';

'>>92621059
>still seething, but now with projection as a cherry on top';

'All magic everywhere is the invention of the human mind. An idea.';

'>>92621131
>nature forms things that humans use
>but it also doesn’t
>also MUH RELIGIN IS LE BAD
Woah there Arthur, you’re frothing at the mouth there

To the non-retards who don’t get a hate boner whenever they see a cross, humans figure out the laws of physics and leverage them to do crazy shit. Slap some saltpetre together with sulphur & carbon and you got a powder that explodes on contact with heat. Slap some flint with steel and you got sparks. Put some paper and a metal ball in a steel tube after the former, make sure the sparks of the latter can reach the powder, and hey presto, you got an easy to use projectile weapon that can pierce through any piece of conventional armour. If we can figure out and abuse natural laws to create guns, then what’s stopping us from doing the same with ambient energy sources, such as magic';

'>92621160
>92621166
Amazing how you can project back-to-back. Kill yourself nigger';

'>>92621219
I don’t hate religion. I just acknowledge it’s a point of view, or a way of looking at things, the world. What is magic to one is not magic to another. What is a god to one is not a god to another. You need to start treating religion and other stories as objects, or ideas.

God to the Christian is simply He, Yahweh, Jehovah, etc. A Name to venerate.

God to the physicist is a sufficiently advanced, “godlike”, higher dimensional being.

To the Christian physicist, it is both. .';

'>>92621219
>then what’s stopping us from doing the same with ambient energy sources
We can’t shoot fire from our hands. We need to create a medium to do that. Flamethrowers. A bottle of body spray + a pocket lighter.
>such as magic
What is magic to you? Even math was treated as magic for thousands of years. The concept of superpowers is too big a can of worms. Too many causality implications. Nature wouldn’t afford blasty blasty fingers superpowers the same way it wouldn’t naturally construct a Buddha.';

'>>92621323
why do creations insist on using their retarded erm aktually theories like coexistance between dinosaurs and men and the world wide flood was an actual thing and not hermit physicist maxx like regular modern sages? are they gifters who use Gods name for usery like kikes?';

'>>92621323
You’re not wrong but they will still hate you for saying it';

'>>92568208
>which side are you?
They're both different playstyles that are roughly equal in power.';

'>>92569618
Gond: "Woah man you can't use gunpowder to make guns. I curse your whole world because fuck you."
Also Gond: "Oh you want to make a sci-fi gun with the power of the death star? And you want to mass produce it for the average person to use? I'll allow it."';

'These threads always attract the same type of people jeez';

'Fireworks and chemistry shit is already associated with magic. Wizards are the people making the guns and preparing the powders. Inventors and discoverers.';

'>>92614150
>sealing every room the king enter
Having guards outside of the king's chambers while he's sleeping is some of the most basic security imaginable.
>nothing prevent the assassin's from entering earlier
Other than any other locked doors with guards nearby, dogs within the room, etc.
Kings had people who tasted meals for poison. Having a guard stab around a room for assassins as part of their patrol isn't exactly a tall order.
>then leave by a window opening
Or somebody shoots the king with a gun from outside the castle and is gone before any guards can track him down. Because that's about as generous of an assumption as you're making for this invisible mage.';

'>>92568208
>guns are strong
>magic is also strong
>magic guns are strongest';

'>>92568208
You realize that CIA spent a fuckton of resources to research magic (sorry, paranormal) in real life?';

'>>92626657
>Having guards outside of the king's chambers while he's sleeping is some of the most basic security imaginable.
>basic
And nowhere enough to stop invisible assassin who could literally enter the room behind the kind in front of a guard.

>Other than any other locked doors
Every single door locked?
Like, king enter to sleep/shit? locked!
Servant deliver food? Followed by a guard with all keys!
Or I guess guards whose only action are to look if that bedroom door open without a hand on it?
Guards plural because you wouldn't want the assassin to, you know, kill the guard.

>with guards nearby
>nearby
When it come to invisibility. Even if you made the soil creak to every single move you'd need the guard literally blocking the way with wire and stuff.

>dogs within the room
"Sorry your Majesty, you need to have these dogs near you every single second.
And remember that any creaking noise from someone around the area might be a silent assassin up to kill you.
Have a pleasant sleep!"

Beside you don't know how hard it is to train security dogs.
Google their flaws.
Dog aren't magic, they too get tired, bored, inattentive, and are dumb.
I can imagine the assassin dropping invisibility, pet the dog dressed as someone who belong here "don't bite!", take it out.

>etc.
"Majesty, you should wear your plate armor when sleeping."

>Or somebody shoots the king with a gun from outside the castle and is gone before any guards can track him down. Because that's about as generous of an assumption as you're making for this invisible mage.
That's just you making the gunner equally invisible while removing your own "invisibility-proof security"

On this, thanks for pointing out an invisible bow/crossbow would be more efficient.
Silent kill on the king at a window from the garden.
Even if the victim died noisily/with a witness you'd be lucky if someone saw the bolt direction.

So, ready to admit Invisibility is BROKEN OP, needing passive invisibility-canceler?';

'>>92574923
Nuance hard';

'>>92568208
What would the middle fantasy meme pic look like?';

'>>92631480
DESU, for some mid-high level stuff I once read a Chinese series where a guy spent first one third of the series trying to figure out how to bring modern tech to fantasy world. After checking out dwarven magitech for manufacturing help, he spends next one third trying to figure out how to make a tech that actually can take down high level magic users.

It was pretty refreshing, since it had nice high level vs high level stuff. It also did point out that to actually bring a lot of modern stuff, like dropping a tactical nuke on a dragon blooded sorcerer, MC had to have an access to the large chunk of strategic manufacturing capacity of the human empire.

It also had a pretty fun approach to magitech, with MC's creations starting from simple stuff like adding servomotors to dwarven automata or trying out if a laser can replicate magical shield piercing properties of the light magic.

The last part was more or less high magic beatdown though.

The title was "My wife is a demon queen".';

'>>92569059
>If the magic comes from the hands, it was made to be that way. Why not from anywhere else?
I like to avoid dropping my pants and pointing my ass towards the charging orcs whenever I need a「Flameblast」.';

'>>92582890
>A bullet renders all sizes equal
That isn't even true for real life humans. A big burly man can fire a big burly gun. Big animals like bears and elephants are a bitch to kill even with guns, so you can bet ogres and giants with massive guns would be a menace.';

'>>92631753
Don't bother with this guy. He constantly spams same buzzwords and cum diavolo copypasta and refuses to understand that, in most settings, spells aren't the foundational blocks of magic but a product of magical research/discovery that obviously got made by someone, that someone being the creator of the spell.

The guy loves to reverse the causality there, treating magical tools and formulas as a foundation of the magic, instead of developed tools and then asking why do these tools are designed to be used by humans.

His second response is conflating gameplay abstractions with in universe events. Guy really seems to think that stuff like point balance and vague spell components are a thing that exists from the character's point of view.';

'>>92630948
>And nowhere enough to stop invisible assassin who could literally enter the room behind the kind in front of a guard.
Not if the door isn't invisible.';

'>>92631842
>Guy really seems to think that stuff like point balance and vague spell components are a thing that exists from the character's point of view.
You’re an actual fucking idiot if you think mechanics don’t conflate with the lore or don’t tie into them. It’s very much a problem in Dungeons & Dragons and it’s an even bigger problem in World of Darkness. Everything is functioning like a machine, and everything is conveniently, practically evenly (in nuWoD) compartmentalized. Yes it’s a fucking game. I’ve had had retarded encounters like “hello fellow five dot dominate user!” and it makes me want to scream. Stop trying to pretend it isn’t a game.';

'>>92631842
The problem with the causality angle is there’s only two options. Either something came about naturally/casually, or it was nudged or done intelligently. The former precedes the latter, and there is no third option. So he’s got you there. Magic in fiction wouldn’t just form casually. An energy capable of being harnessed by the mind and played with by the fingers *isn’t* natural or casual. Nature as it moves wouldn’t conveniently, or randomly form a statue of Abraham Lincoln alone, not without intelligence, which it produced.

Whatever. This is just common sense. It’s a coin flip. It’s one of the other, and only one allows what you want.';

'>>92632268
>nooooo, don’t tell me superpowers can’t naturally evolve for me to use suspiciously exclusively
This is why you upset them';

'>>92631842
>Ive discovered a way to shoot ice from my dick
Are you implying the arbitrariness of the discovery wasnt arbitrarily made or arbitrarily considered before that point, before the discoverer';

'>>92632268
> An energy capable of being harnessed by the mind and played with by the fingers *isn’t* natural or casual
Why? No, really, why? What makes this particular idea seem so impossible? Especially for a species evolved in an environment with magical energies which usually comes with an assumption that the ability to interface with such energies is a physical part of their bodies, as obvious as our ability to interface with oxygen.';

'>>92632452
No, I'm implying that the ability to direct magical energies in an ergonomic/tool like manner is, in universe a product of artifice and research by default.

Good mundane analogy would be a gun. Reason why guns aren't sphincter operated is because they are complex tools designed by humans to be used by humans.

I do consider spells to be tools made from knowledge of basic magical components. As for the ability to interface with magic, I'd like to refer to my previous point: >>92632464, that being the fact in most settings the ability to interface with magic is a natural consequence of magic being a part of the world itself, just like low explosives are a part of our real world.

>>92632208
>“hello fellow five dot dominate user!”
Not a worldbuilding issue, but a player issue. And the mechanics can absolutely abstract lore, especially for complex processes, which 9/10 includes magic.';

'>>92630948
This is stupid because if you actually read about ancient security, yes they usually did have guards at locked doors at every juncture in a royals home. Of course they did.';

'>>92632464
>Why? No, really, why?
Nature wouldn’t evolve superpowers to look like superheroes. Electric eels can only zap you one way. They’d have to resort to external ingenuity beyond that.

Again, this is just common sense. Nature improves differently.';

'>>92632526
>Not a worldbuilding issue
Depends on the book. Some authors assume they talk like this. Not even joking. Do you even play games? If you did, you’d be familiar with all of this cancer, which is already talked about enough on tg as is. Wew.';

'>>92632526
>Good mundane analogy would be a gun.
See >>92591410 and actually absorb it this time';

'>>92632526
Those “magical components” are clearly bullshit tho';

'>>92632630
My dude, electric eel of all things is opposite of what you are stating, having literal modified muscles for shooting electricity. What's more, it actually has two modes of firing for high and low voltage due to having multiple electric organs.

In fact, nature does typically evolve "powers" in a way that naturally follows body plan of the animal in question. In my example, the electric organs are modified muscles.
>>92632645
I mean, I don't run WoD. I mostly run Touhou stuff for friends.
>>92632667
Yeah, I've read it. And it's still bullshit based on the fact that in many settings that's blatantly false.';

'>>92632859
Yeah, getting good components that add to the immersion instead of breaking it is hard and DnD is notorious for fumbling it due to being littered by old nerd jokes and lazy shortcuts. I actually agree with that few settings get the components thing right.';

'>>92632917
Electric eels don’t “shoot” electricity you retarded fucking teenager. They can at best “shoot” it out at eight-ish centimetres.
>Tohou
Oh god, just fucking end it.';

'>>92632917
>In fact, nature does typically evolve "powers" in a way that naturally follows body plan of the animal in question. In my example, the electric organs are modified muscles.

Electric organs don’t shoot out seeking arcs of chain lightning that glow red with Norse runes and scream like the dead.';

'>>92633093
>>92633145
I'm answering both of you since you are making the same point - electric organs are a part of eel's body, made from adapted muscles, that can shot out electricity. Sure, it's a short range shock traveling from water, but that's it.
>>92633145
Yeah, because glowing runes are a tool used by its user who lacks an organ that can shoot electricity.';

'>>92633170
It can hardly even be called short range. It’s the length of your penis.';

'>>92633209
Look man, the range was never a point of the talk in first place. The point was the talk about how the nature produces living creatures capable of interacting with the rest of the world.

Cum diavolo copypasta guy's thesis was that nature never produces things that are "convenient" for the animal by adding features that fit their existing body plan, citing an electric eel. I have said that the electric eel is actually a great example of nature giving a creature a "convenient" power due to the electricity coming from a set of modified muscles that are actually split into a set of multiple electric organs.';

'>>92575903
He looks like Henry Kissinger.';

'>>92633470
>Cum diavolo copypasta guy's thesis was that nature never produces things that are "convenient" for the animal

It doesn’t, outside of survival or adaption, because again, nature/evolution wouldn’t naturally produce pic related. It just fucking wouldn’t. The same way nature wouldn’t just randomly create a perfectly carved marble statue of Julius Caesar over the course of millions and millions of years. We identity the products of intelligence by way of artistic sophistication. We have archaeologists arguing over underwater structures, over whether they were man-made or not, over the subtlest or straight lines and angles. All magic in fiction is artistically sophisticated, even if just by way of the author who wrote it. I don’t care if this breaks the fourth wall to you. It’s artistically convenient because as a point of it being a story, and all fiction breaks down the more you poke at it.

Nature letting eels shock prey is one thing. Electric eels having the capability to shoot out red lightning beams from their eyes is something else—something nature wouldn’t artistically create. Most magic systems are quite visually artsy. Too artsy. None of it would conveniently come about naturally/casually, only artificially/artistically. Magic is always alive in some way, even if it’s just from the mind’s eye.

The anon you’re arguing with is thinking steps further ahead/behind. Everything comes from something and leads up to something. Nature produces intelligence, which produces things nature couldn’t form unintelligently on its own. This isn’t really all that difficult to grasp, fundamentally. Everything meets in the end.';

'>>92634984
subtlest of* straight lines and angles';

'>>92634984
>something nature wouldn’t artistically create
OK, let me get it straight. Are you arguing that nature doesn't produce flashy things because they are too artsy? The nature? The same nature that literally sent multiple species, like peacocks, into an evolutionary arms races of flashy visual appeal? Dude, that's just too dumb.

>It doesn’t, outside of survival or adaption, because again, nature/evolution wouldn’t naturally produce pic related. It just fucking wouldn’t.
Both convergent evolution and mimicry are known things.

Frankly, you keep on saying "it doesn't, it can't, it won't" but you never explain why. Like your example of eye beam eel. Why is it impossible for nature to do so? Especially with different set of physics (AKA magic) changing what's achievable for an organism?

Nature doesn't give a flying fuck about what humans consider artistic. It cares about what works.

Also, your statue formation idea is irrelevant to most magic systems. OK? Spells are artificial. They are tools. Claiming that a magic system is too neat and artsy to be natural is like claiming that a computer system is to be natural. It debunks a statement that's already so obviously false people are wondering if you even understood the question in a first place.

Also, there are plenty of systems where magic isn't alive at fundamental level. Or at least isn't alive in same sense as a bunch of silica rocks aren't alive just because we made a computer out of them.';

'>>92575810
But the real question is (from an in universe perspective), why would they? Seems like it's just some bullshit game devs and lore writers come up with to justify the gameplay limitations they need to put on players to keep the game balanced.';

'>>92635225
NTA, but Mystra's case was basically her declaring that making repeatable magic formulas on a scale of mass reality warping and letting mortals have them was just too dangerous for the world at large. She just didn't want some idiot deciding to raze the world to the ground being able to do this with a formula spell.';

'>>92635169
>Are you arguing that nature doesn't produce flashy things because they are too artsy?
I’m saying the way the magic works and is constructed, or just came about, implies a sort of intellect behind it. I don’t care if it’s the gods, some alien AI, or the author itself. It’s just the way it is. All magic in real life myth and folklore is like this too. It’s all like a game.
>The same nature that literally sent multiple species, like peacocks, into an evolutionary arms races of flashy visual appeal?
There’s an evolutionary, selective advantage to that. Like literally anything else in nature. Outside of survival or adaption? There’d be no justification.

>Both convergent evolution and mimicry are known things
Because of convergent adaption, yes, like in Australia. The shape of the crab is *efficient*.

>Frankly, you keep on saying "it doesn't, it can't, it won't" but you never explain why
>Like your example of eye beam eel. Why is it impossible for nature to do so?
Lol.
>Nature doesn't give a flying fuck about what humans consider artistic. It cares about what works.
You say that, and yet you think physics would just naturally, childishly, produce x-men superpowers for you? It doesn’t give a fuck about a childish monkey’s imagination.

Do you really think nature could build a statue of a Buddha without first forming an intelligence to conceive of it, before building it? What about the Eiffel tower?

The proof is in the over constructed, robotic, beep-boop nature of magic in 99.99% of all fiction everywhere.

>Claiming that a magic system is too neat and artsy to be natural is like claiming that a computer system is to be natural.
Human artifice can be argued as natural, the same way anthills are natural. The words for artificial and artifice come from art.

>Also, there are plenty of systems where magic isn't alive at fundamental level.
There isn’t an instance of magic in fiction that wasn’t first conceived of intelligently. Tough.';

'>>92635169
>Or at least isn't alive in same sense as a bunch of silica rocks aren't alive just because we made a computer out of them.

Intelligence is intelligence. A conversational AI can be argued as more “alive” than a jellyfish, purely going by its superior interactiveness. A jellyfish cannot hold a conversation.

Consciousness isn’t a requirement for intelligence either.';

'>>92635169
>Nature doesn't give a flying fuck about what humans consider artistic. It cares about what works.

What works in nature doesn’t care about what humans work or want. The Sun will one day reach red giant status unless someone or something decides otherwise. Nature doesn’t even care about itself.';

'>>92635321
>produce x-men superpowers for you
My dude, we have creatures shooting scalding chemicals out of their assess, rodents capable of regenerating their skin after being flayed halfway through and octopuses capable of camouflage so good they look like they are literally melding into scenery even to our colour sensitive eyes.
>I’m saying the way the magic works and is constructed, or just came about, implies a sort of intellect behind it. I don’t care if it’s the gods, some alien AI, or the author itself. It’s just the way it is. All magic in real life myth and folklore is like this too. It’s all like a game.
Yes, and I'm saying that most magic systems are products of a long term artifice, either by mages or by some sort of a god or spirit or a combination of them.

>Do you really think nature could build a statue of a Buddha without first forming an intelligence to conceive of it, before building it? What about the Eiffel tower?
As I have already said, most popular stories assume that spells are constructed. You are begging an answer to a question that makes no sense, since it reverses the causality. You take a look at the end product of an artifice (divine or mortal) and ask why does it look artificial.

>constructed, robotic, beep-boop nature of magic in 99.99% of all fiction everywhere.
What do you mean by robotic and beep-boop? You are literally just throwing insults at magic systems without elaborating what do they mean. Or actually explaining what would a non robotic magic look like for you.

>There isn’t an instance of magic in fiction that wasn’t first conceived of intelligently. Tough.
Yes, and? Take a spoon for example. It's clearly an object that has been constructed intelligently. And it's neither alive nor intelligent in slightest. Something being intelligently designed doesn't imply that it possesses intelligence or life of its own.';

'>>92635381
Yes, that's the core of my argument. Saying that things are too convenient or artsy for nature or that nature doesn't produce orderly things makes no real sense since nature isn't a sapient agent.';

'>>92635430
If that was the core of your argument, you wouldn’t be disagreeing with that one anon.

You want superpowers that are justifiable through evolution alone. Not happening.';

'>>92635453
Why? That's the question. Superpower is an overly general term that can mean anything. Can you explain my what does this term mean for you if you believe that superpowers aren't possible to evolve? Especially considering all the weird abilities living animals can have without extra source of energy in form of magic?
>>92635337
Look dude, I'm not talking about an AI but about a normal computer. I can make the example simpler for better impact. Do you believe that a calculator is intelligent? Or a logarithmic slider? Or an abacus?';

'>>92635410
>my dude
You keep typing like an underage.
>we have creatures shooting scalding chemicals out of their assess, rodents bla bla bla
Yes, because of adaptive evolution. It is narrowed. Good lord. Show me an animal that can conjure matter and defy our understanding of the conservation of mass. Yeah, you can’t. That’s higher dimensional alien bullshit by default, disconnected from our evolutionary perceptions.

>You are begging an answer to a question that makes no sense, since it reverses the causality. You take a look at the end product of an artifice (divine or mortal) and ask why does it look artificial.
It’s artificial because an intelligence was behind its making lol. That’s the cause-and-effect leading up to it.

>What do you mean by robotic and beep-boop?
Did I stutter? These are GAMES. It is as machine like as >>92591410 says. The components are retarded and putting them together is like pressing the button on an invisible machine.

>Something being intelligently designed doesn't imply that it possesses intelligence or life of its own.
Irrelevant when an intelligence still lead up to it. A device is still a device because it was made intelligently. It *denotes* intelligence. A magic system that works like a device? That denotes intelligence behind the scenes. This shouldn’t really bother you when a fuck ton of fiction has magic being the product of the gods, or similar higher beings, however seen or unseen.';

'>>92635466
Okay. Please explain to me how nature would justify a human being flying like Superman for the sake of adaptive evolution. I will wait.

It’s fucking bizarre how you’re not getting this. At all.';

'>>92635524
Yep, you are literally unable to comprehend the discussion we are having. I've played with literal autists who were more capable of understanding that not everybody is using their own personal lingo, even it took few sessions for them to adjust.';

'>>92635559
Lol, okay.';

'>>92635410
If I found a spoon, I’d think someone made it to be and look that way, for it to so conveniently lend itself to human hands.

If I found an energy source that somehow links to the human mind and can take whatever shape they mentally wish (“spells” and such), I’d assume someone made it that way too, for it to so conveniently lend itself to human hands.';

'The universe is not a weeb and will not give you cool Naruto running powers lul

It expects you to do that on your own, and look incredibly cringe while doing it';

'>>92583315
Math is literally magic. No, I mean like it actually is. A lot of old magic is mathematics rooted in astrology, geometry, and alchemy. And modern day math such as physics and such has given us the power to harness nuclear energy, travel space, and create intelligence.';

'>>92613539
>The vast majority of the world's history was lived without guns
I mean, not really. The slingshot and sling are some of the oldest weapons known to man.
>But they're not guns
They are. The the progenitors to guns. If you wanna play it that way, swords and full plate armor don't belong in your setting either, as most of human history was without those too.

I think the point the anon was making was more akin to using a medieval setting. Wherein, not too long into the medieval era of Europe, we started to see guns. Your portrayal of magic is also limited in a similar fashion. Cornelius Agrippa didn't exist till the Renaissance era.';

'>>92635936
Pythagoras approves of this post.';

'>>92636129
Yeah I agree with everything you said except
>The the progenitors to guns
Slings and bows are drastically different and unrelated to guns, other than both being projectile weapons. Maybe you could argue the crossbow is, but definitely not the bow and sling';

'>>92636759
The Slingshot definitely can be seen as the most primitive form of a gun.';

'>WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH EVERYTHING HAS TO COME THROUGH EVOLUTION BECAUSE IM INCAPABLE OF ACCEPTING ANYTHING ELSE WITHOUT SHATTERING MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF WAAAAAAAAAAAH
Can someone get the retard his binkey? His crying is so terribly incessant';

'>>92581756
I always thought Harry Potter magic was retarded. Brandon Sanderson is a dork, but his magic system rule thing is kinda necessary if you're going to try to make it like Harry Potter. Conan, LOTR, and ASOIAF handle magic in a better way in my opinion.';

'>>92582925
I liked Shadowrun.';

'>>92636829
Yeah, Conan and ASOIAF follow Sanderson’s axiom of “the less the audience knows about how the magic works, the less the magic is able to solve problems”. That’s why you’ve always got sorcerers as the villains of Conan rather than a part of his group. For LOTR it’s because of “if it isn’t cutting things well or making light shine, it takes too fucking long”';

'>>92592809
There really should be more focus on the time from when guns emerged in their more modern form. Hand cannons and cannons and what is basically roman candles and roman candle artillery being around at the same time as knights and prior just seems strange. They rarely show that kind of tech in use at the same time. Realizing the timelines of this stuff changes one's perspective of history.';

'>>92568208
Why not both?';

'>>92637711
is this the fabled Fallout: London I've heard so much about?';

'>>92632547
>every juncture
Whatever you call "juncture" are far in between because there is such a thing as "wasted effort".
Guard were sufficient because they could SEE WHO ENTER.

Real ancient security wasn't sufficient for fantasy-level invisibility, who knew?
Heck, real modern security wouldn't be sufficient for fantasy-level invisibility.

The only way to stop fantasy level invisibility would be to make a meat-wall around every single person entering, search every square meter of every chariot, make wall that can't be climbed at all, cause invisible assassin could take the time.

The only stupid here is the one who can't simply admit invisibility is broken OP magic that need equally OP counter.

>>92632185
>Not if the door isn't invisible.
low effort schizo cope that's not an answer';

'>>92607343
>Oh okay, that makes sense';

'>>92568208
Neither
>Magic requires years of training and is able to reach heights that conventional firearms can't hope to achieve
>Firearms are on the level of flintlock pistols and muskets but require minimal training and are easy to mass-produce
>Individual bullets cannot be magically enchanted because the runes need to be inscribed on the pellets, and the combustion from the gun pulverizes the inscriptions
>Manaphobic bullets exist in the form of Silver Bullets, which are not immune to the effects of magical barriers and constructs, but highly resistant to them

All things in equilibrium, as they should be.';

'>>92569545
>How else do martials survive wizards?
Wizards have to sleep and eat, they are fairly easy to assassinate, an unexpected crossbow shot will one shot a wizard, poisoning works well too or catching them off guard while they sleep, git creative, git gud.';

'>>92641389
except elven wizards who do not sleep';

'>>92636821
It’s not evolution he’s talking about specifically, more so than causality, which is what evolution abides by. Things move and change.

Do you think things just pop into existence without anything leading up to it? Really?';

'>>92641594
If they are alive, they sleep';

'>>92641791
>Do you think things just pop into existence without anything leading up to it?
If you have a ounce of logic then yes, it doesn't matter in what you believe, but the first matter was born out of nothing, otherwise it doesn't make sense for anything to exist.
>And modern day math such as physics and such has given us the power to harness nuclear energy, travel space, and create intelligence.
Are you retarded? We can't harness nuclear energy, we use the thermal energy producted by nuclear fission, we've been using thermal energy for hundreds of years now.
>travel space
Humans have only traveled to the moon, supposedly, and we're incapable of doing that right now with the latest nasa moon manned mission being re-purposed into yet another drone expedition.
>create intelligence.
???';

'>>92630948
>Sorry your Majesty, you need to have these dogs near you every single second.
Oh no. Having pets around. What a terrible existence.
>Dog aren't magic, they too get tired, bored, inattentive, and are dumb.
Does invisibility also mean that the assassin never gets tired or makes mistakes?
>I can imagine the assassin dropping invisibility, pet the dog
Dogs start barking, king wakes up, guards open the door and see the very non-invisible assassin. That's just one of many ways your idiotic plans can go wrong.

>That's just you making the gunner equally invisible while removing your own "invisibility-proof security"
Correct. It is using the same method of argumentation you are: ignoring all of the realities of the security and suggesting that the assassin just gets around it because you said so. Such as
>Or I guess guards whose only action are to look if that bedroom door open without a hand on it?
Where you think guards who are assigned to guard a door aren't going to pay attention if the door suddenly starts to open or close for whatever reason. Must have been the wind, right?
Same for the gunner. Shoots the king in broad daylight guards stand around cluelessly thinking it was thunder despite the fact it's not raining. That's the level of competence you're suggesting is the norm.';

'>>92642760
>Oh no. Having pets around. What a terrible existence.
There's a reason we keep them outside, at least you admit you are forcing the VIP to sleep with an awake dog (harsh training there, usually you need a master constantly keeping it focused), a dog who MAY maybe detect the assassin better with sound/scent.

All assuming the assassination wasn't done by poisoning the food right as it is served. It work without magic, imagine how easier it is with invisibility.

>Does invisibility also mean that the assassin never gets tired or makes mistakes?
Only if your guards&dogs never get tired or make mistakes.

>That's just one of many ways your idiotic plans can go wrong.
Or the dog don't bark and your VIP get killed in the billions ways invisibility make assassination easier.

>the guards catch invisible assassin who have initiative because I said so
Fixed that one for you. You are the one claiming victory, desperately denying that invisibility make every single method of assassination easier.

>Where you think guards who are assigned to guard a door aren't going to pay attention if the door suddenly starts to open or close for whatever reason
You are imagining infinite number of guards+dog for every single door plus key for every door.
You are still desperately trying to deflect that with invisibility an assassin can enter the room right behind anyone the guard open the door for unless he do some kind of choregraphy with wire or whatever trying to corner assassin?

>Same for the gunner.
You brought up the gun.
I just point out that invisibility + bow/crowboy give greater result with less noise at the cost of a lower range.

You are the idiot trying to avoid admitting the simple fact that invisibility spell would make protection impossibly harder and impact how you do everything.';

'>>92643365
>>92642760
Shit the thread is on auto-sage.
Anon know who won that debate anyway.';

'>>92643365
>crowboy
surprising myself with that one';

'>>92641905
>the first matter was born out of nothing
lol';