'Here's your Green Sun Prince bro';

'Is it too easy to resist gaining new Intimacies in Essence? If so, how would you fix it?';

'>>92605732
He is more of a demonblooded Solar.';

'>>92605732
OP's pic is closer to my Green Sun Prince desu';

'>>92605598
>TQ
I had a dynast who was faithful to the Immaculate Order in a game where it very quickly became obvious that everybody else had built characters that were very sympathetic to the vile Anathema. I worked with the rest of the group to compromise him and one hearthmate in particular gave a very good shounen talk that became a turning point in the story.

On the exact opposite end of the spectrum, my Twilight with Past Lives 5 who died instantly in the Calibration Feast was under the impression that Dragonblood were and always had been noble and honorable figures of good reason and upstanding virtue. Having heard that the Dragonblood made up the world's biggest superpower and were noble heroes of the world they continued to believe that the Dragonblood were all fundamentally good people in their newest incarnation, and that the world was largely in good hands, and that their new reincarnation would be them bringing back the wonders of the First Age hand in hand with the noble Terrestrial Exalted. The first Immaculate they met in the Age of Sorrows changed their view of things significantly.

>>92605732
You could do much worse for an Infernal character than Laharl. What caste though? I'm thinking Scourge, because he hates love.';

'>>92607000
Scourges don't hate love though. He strikes me more as a Slayer.';

'>>92605317
Urgh! Damn bratty Dragonblooded, needs correction!';

'>>92605598
>did your character ever meet somebody who changed their world views
Had a Lunar who was a selfish prick and slayer of innumerable amounts of pussy, get turned into a loving husbandou by a prostitute he fell in love with.

The power of his mighty dick also banged the slut right out of her. She was also extremely vengeful and revenge driven, and putting 3 children in her belly fixed that too. They were both terrible people, but love for each other fixed them both.

They're also a bit of jealous psychos about each other though, but it's not too dangerous to others. Usually.';

'>>92608474
New campaign NPC idea: Heretical Cynis noble whose "evil plan" is acting catty in Lunar territory in the hopes of being repeatedly corrected by nearby Lunars-all for the sake of potentially having Dragonblooded children that also benefit from beastmen genes. Has some sort of plot device artifact/sorcerous working that makes conception easier to be repeatedly impregnated, carry children to term in five days and give birth as easily and safely as pushing out a hard shit.

Yes, it's awfully anti-Immaculate but hey the Realm Civil War is brewing and everyone needs an edge.';

'>>92608494
>prostitute
>extremely vengeful and revenge driven
>instantly fixed by kids
Ngl, no offence but that prostitute sounds like a more interesting Exalt candidate than your Lunar. If he hadn't fixed her she might've become an Infernal. Hell, might still.

>"I have a loving husband, a nice house and three children!"
>...
>"UGH, I bet he's thinking about other girls! God if only I was a badass Anathema I'd have accomplished more in life than a couple brats..."
>cue a blood ape politely knocking on the door and asking if she's heard the good news about Malfeas, the True and Honest King of Creation';

'>>92608612
I've had a game like this before.';

'>>92608627
She already was.

Also I said nothing of how the Lunar came to be a Lunar.';

'>>92608474
>>92608612
>old aging monks who want a Lunar to give them a /ss/ form for correction
man....';

'>>92608627
>>92608612
>>92608666
Remember, Lunar were the Chosen mates for a reason.

Turns out giga animal dicks and super shape-shifting pussy can ground anyone.';

'>>92608627
Oh, and she dismembered a DB noble and buried her beneath the floorboards of their house because she had an arranged marriage to the Lunar from before he hit that moon powerup and had come to collect (not knowing he was a Lunar then either).';

'>>92608666
Can't fight the feet
>human feet
>loli feet
>furry feet
>paw feet
>hooven feet
>bird feet
>lizard feet
>so many feet
>all one person
Why don't the Lunars rule Creation already?';

'>>92608835
>Why don't the Lunars rule Creation already?
All shape no skill.';

'Solars have really boring charms, but some people think that's intentional. Also some people point out that certain charm trees have cool and interesting things in them, while ignoring other charmtrees are plain jane vanilla with a side of ice. I mean, name the unique things that no other Exalt, even other Solaria's, of the following
>Melee
>Archery
>Thrown
>Resistance
>Athletics
>Larceny
>Stealth';

'>>92608835
It is balanced because of their shit personalities.

Basically a bunch of virgin Chads and pizza Stacies, people who you just pump and dump.';

'>>92607000
>>92607662
Yeah, Slayer, fits him to a T';

'>>92608835
>why don't lunars rule
>foot talk

Anyone serious about rule uses the Metric system';

'>>92608835
Because the devs are too afraid of making a charm where a Lunar can shrink someone.';

'undefined';

'>>92611089
Isn't there already a charm for Lunars that imposes a transformation on someone? Just use Emerald Grasshopper with that one.';

'>>92611103
Sincerely, it is indistinguishable from the average 3e crowd.';

'>>92609473
>Melee
Stab the hope out of someone (Abyssals)
>Archery
Shoot emotions (Sidereals)
>Thrown
Make thrown weapons generate projectiles (Sidereals)
>Resistance
>Athletics
>Etc
Let me just save you a lot of trouble and say it's mostly Sidereals making everyone else look bad, Dragonblooded having Avatar powers and Alchemicals having a robot aesthetic. Oh right and in 3e Abyssals can turn shed blood into raitons with Thrown, use the Old Laws to summon seven cursed blades with Stealth and shoot localised holes into Oblivion with Archery. Pretty sure Solars can't do any of that.';

'>>92605888
The problem with hard bargains are that they're entirely ST-controlled. The solution is to not play Essence.';

'>>92611320
>Oh right and in 3e Abyssals can turn shed blood into raitons with Thrown
Wouldn't this be in larceny?';

'>>92611420
You'd think so but nope. Red-Winged Raiton Murmuration's Thrown 5, Essence 4.

Oh and I haven't mentioned Infernals because their ability-based charmsets (damn 3e to Hell) haven't been released yet.';

'>>92611508
I was joking because raiton is a really weird name for a dinosaur, it means rat in Spanish.';

'>>92611320
I was asking for the interesting thing in the Solar charmset, autocorrect put Solaroids as Solarias...';

'>>92611404
so is the enemy using 1 wp in 3e lol. Essence is more honest about it.
>BUT PERSUADE
the rest of the social system exists beyond persuade.';

'...Do NPCs even have the ability to make Hard Bargains in Essence?';

'>>92611537
it's an exalted not-crow/raven animal with a lizard tail instead of tail-feathers, been a thing since 1e iirc';

'>>92611629
I know, it is an Archeopteryx, urvogel would make more sense.

Raiton isn't indicative like tyrant lizards.';

'>>92611690
it fits imo, leaning more on eastern side than western ancient history';

'>>92611627
Just checked, they do.
> All significant characters have the ability to outright refuse social influence (p. 134). Unless a character absolutely would never take that course of action, Storytellers are encouraged to use the hard bargain outcome instead. It’s far more interesting to put characters in difficult situations than to shut down the encounter entirely.

Kind of worse off than 3e. Granted, Essence assumes that your storyteller is not a jack off, but I feel if an NPC does a hard bargain they should also get the dice penalty that outright rejecting it does. It shouldn't be equally strong between players, or it should have another clause that says a player gets more of a say in what the hard bargain causes.';

'>>92611739
>Granted, Essence assumes that your storyteller is not a jack off
that should be the default assumption, imo';

'>>92611703
Lightning release apart, raiton sounds more Spanish/French.';

'>>92611764
I'll agree to disagree';

'>>92611807
Exalted naming conventions can get really weird.
Even for anime standards.';

'>>92611746
That man lacks regality.';

'>>92611874
Why can't Dynasts look like this?';

'>>92612392
3e? "Realism"fags.';

'>>92611593
>Melee
obviously insanely boring, so no, nothing special
>Archery
I don't think any Exalted get anything equivalent to Solar Judgment Flare.
>Thrown
also very very boring
>Resistance
Mostly boring but I don't think anyone else (though I'm not particularly familiar with the new Abyssal charms) gets something akin to Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer's Spirit, aka the Berserker line.
>Athletics
I am fairly certain that no one else gets to have ~40-50 successes on average. Boring, but you don't need to prop up Athletics with cool effects, being strong enough to lift castles is cool enough on its own.
>Larceny
FSSA is unique, surely? not a particularly good example, mind, but its there.
>Stealth
Unless you count Arcane Fate, being able to hide from people's memories is a fairly unique effect.';

'>>92612392
Because that isn't Exalted in the slightest. Fuck 3e and it's boring ass westernization fuckery. A proper Exalted Dynastic character looks like something out of Dynasty Warriors, not some westernized sodomite.';

'>>92612715
Yeah, they look like a chinese lady-boy.';

'>>92612846
Perfect for the Big Lunar Cock.';

'>>92612715
That's no way to talk about the Sun King.';

'>>92611746
>royalty
>manly';

'>>92612949
>Big Lunar Cock.
Outside of the goat-girls, all Lunars have overgrown pseudo clits.';

'So which is the more interesting antagonist - abyssals or infernals?';

'>>92615382
Abyssals because Infernals are too good as PCs ';

'which edition would be best for emulating the events of metal gear solid 2 and 4';

'>>92615382
Neither. "Solar, but eeeeeevil" is a shit concept inherently. If you want an evil Solaroid, just make an actual Solar and have him go full Hitler.';

'>>92615873
None of them.';

'>>92615947
That's why I was against Holden's idea to have Infernals represent the decadence of First Age Solars. Doing so sort of absolves the new Solars of that guilt by passing it on to others. Don't worry, you're a shiny golden hero, Infernals and Abyssals are the evil ones.';

'>>92615382
Infernals because-

>>92615746
-yeah no actually this is the right answer.

>>92615947
Seething.';

'>>92615947
Hilariously, this is a counterargument against Abyssals, but not Infernals
Making your corrupted Solars weird instead of just a goth recolor was one of the best things they could've done for Infernals

>>92615986
While I do like the "Infernals are Decedent First Age Solars in 3E" idea, that is a fairly good point. I think I mostly like it cause it's neater than what we seem to be getting, but it's still a far cry from them being glowing green weirdo warlocks like in 2E';

'>>92615986
Yes, it created a moral dichotomy.
Than these same people were confused/pissed about why Solars are seem as the heroes of the setting.

>>92616053
2e Infernals ended up as a wild card.';

'>>92616124
>2e Infernals ended up as a wild card.
Pretty much, yeah, which I think is exactly what they needed to be, as "Solar, but evil" can easily be covered by a Solar... and is about 33% of the reason why Abyssals are the one splat that's never really caught my interest, but Infernals quickly overtook Sids as my favorite when they were revealed';

'So do elementals just continually increase in essence as long as they remain alive? Meaning that turning into a greater elemental dragon is the eventual fate of any of them that don't get killed?

Or can you become a kickass Essence 9 lesser elemental dragon and just do whatever you want for eternity?';

'>>92615382
I don't know shit about the Infernals so I guess the Abyssals win by default.';

'>>92616213
More or less, that's my understanding, yes';

'>>92616213
Yeah pretty much, it's why everyone was so concerned about the emergence of Greater Dragons. Really makes you wonder if the Primordials would've won the war if they just made armies of elementals to counter the armies of Exalted.';

'>>92615382
Depends on what the plot is

Army of undead storming across the land?
The inversion of everything the bright, shining heroes are?
Someone corrupted and evil just trying rekindle a weak, sputtering spark of purity that what was lost to him a lifetime ago?
Evil goth mommy to step on you?
You want an Abyssal

Parts of Creation being slowly corrupted by a weird, alien cult?
Mad scientist/cult leader/monster in human flesh using strange, twisted powers in service of stranger, more twisted gods?
A warlock who's shattered the chains binding him to the ones he sold his soul to, and is now turning his former master's own powers against them, becoming something glorious and terrifying?
An ever increasingly unhinged weirdo who pulls new, but thematically linked. powers out of their ass at the drop of a hat?
You want an Infernal';

'>>92616124
Holden's entire thought process is incomprehensible to me. He seems to be alright at writing fluff and can seem to make simple to grasp, comprehensible mechanics when not shackled to Morke but the way he puts the cart so far before the horse and then gets pissed people don't "get it" or comes up with ideas like the 3e preview alluding to Super Infernals that will just make the Yozis win by merely existing just feels like there's a part of his brain sabotaging the rest of his work.';

'>>92616297
I'd suggest checking them out, they're pretty cool
The first two chapters of their book is a bit too try hard on the edge, but they're still pretty neat

>>92616357
IIRC, late 1E states the Greater Dragons are Gaia's 3CDs, so the Primordials can't really spam them like that
Or rather, they did try to

>>92616400
>or comes up with ideas like the 3e preview alluding to Super Infernals that will just make the Yozis win by merely existing
Given his very vocal complaints about the focus on the Yozi I'm still quite confused why he included this bit
The only way I can square that circle is that he wanted there to be an Infernal splat AND a Green Sun Prince splat, which, uh, I mean I like 2E's version of Infernals, but that's too much';

'>>92616449
>IIRC, late 1E states the Greater Dragons are Gaia's 3CDs, so the Primordials can't really spam them like that
>Or rather, they did try to
At least in 2e, the two were separate despite basically having the same name. It was mentioned that the Primordials shattered the original elemental dragons because of how powerful they were.';

'>>92616449
Ah, I was dwelling on 2e where elementals are a wholly different thing made from splinters of bigger things the gods created after the Primordial War and not even the gods seem to know why the Kukla randomly became so strong. Though I believe late 1e also implied Creation is literally Gaia's jouten and the Kukla could solo hundreds of Solars so...yeah.

>I'm still quite confused why he included this bit
I know right?! I'm a huge Infernalfag and that shit sounds like something I'd suggest a ST who likes the same kind of game I do have as the outcome of a combination Artifact N/A and Ambition 3 Solar Working happening in conjunction ONLY at Calibration, under certain mystical circumstances and basically as a plot device reward for a combination of good roleplaying and a mutual agreement between player and ST not to stress the fine details of what that would even entail.

It is NOT something I would ever think to allude to putting in a published product if I worked for OPP, jesus that just fucks over the whole "we don't want any more metaplots" philosophy that 3e opened with doesn't it?

>The only way I can square that circle is that he wanted there to be an Infernal splat AND a Green Sun Prince splat, which, uh, I mean I like 2E's version of Infernals, but that's too much
Okay yeah considering someone decided to randomly bring up Obsidian Shards of Infinity in Black Mirror Shintai, I could see Holden being spiteful enough to try to use Super Infernals as an attempt to shame the playerbase for liking 2e Infernals.';

'>>92616576
>It was mentioned that the Primordials shattered the original elemental dragons because of how powerful they were
You mean, the original ELEMENTALS right not the ELEMENTAL DRAGONS? Because I distinctly remember the fire one hanging out in the Daystar, the earth one being under Mt. Meru in RotSE and so on';

'>>92616600
Yeah, but the original elementals were also dragons. It's why elementals turn into dragons as the raise in Essence.';

'>>92616583
>"we don't want any more metaplots" philosophy that 3e opened with doesn't it?
3e was supposed to have a pseudo metaplot with seasons.
We know of this thanks for the leaked nu-exalts' sales pitch.';

'>>92616576
Yeah, I remembered that, just couldn't recall if it was a 1Eism or 2Eism, weren't the original Elementals a creation of the Incarna in that bit of lore?

>>92616583
>Though I believe late 1e also implied Creation is literally Gaia's jouten and the Kukla could solo hundreds of Solars so...yeah.
I don't think that was the case with the former, but I think there's some bit in 2E that supposes Demesnes might be Gaia's subsouls, though I could be mixing my lore up, but IIRC both 1E and 2E have danced around the issue implying there's some sort of relationship between Gaia, her souls, and Creation, but Gaia is explicitly not Creation... but also explicitly not NOT Creation if that makes sense?
Again, could be mixing up my lore though

>I know right?! I'm a huge Infernalfag and that shit sounds like something I'd suggest a ST who likes the same kind of game I do have as the outcome of a combination Artifact N/A and Ambition 3 Solar Working happening in conjunction ONLY at Calibration, under certain mystical circumstances and basically as a plot device reward for a combination of good roleplaying and a mutual agreement between player and ST not to stress the fine details of what that would even entail.
>jesus that just fucks over the whole "we don't want any more metaplots" philosophy that 3e opened with doesn't it?
I'd include it only happening with all that the end of a long, long campaign at the very least, but yeah, that, and stuff like it has me half convinced the current devs don't actually know what they want, just vague ideas of what they don't want

>I could see Holden being spiteful enough to try to use Super Infernals as an attempt to shame the playerbase for liking 2e Infernals.
That actually makes more sense than what I was thinking, but from what I've seen/read Holden's general reaction to people wanting Infernals is confusion, not spite

>>92616682
>Planning for that
>Despite all their complaints about the metaplot in the past';

'>>92615382
I'm in a game currently where I play an Infernal and another player plays an Abyssal. We kind of are the antagonists.';

'The first elementals were not dragons, they were created by the gods with the help of Gaia, inspired by the way she made the five elemental dragons.

They were not themselves dragons.

The first one was Mindful Forest and it was a 7 mile tall Ent. This is at least the case in 1e and 2e.

The reason elementals eventually turn into dragons is that elemental essence is aligned to the 5 elemental dragons and the original elementals were built using them as a blueprint.

But the Great Garda wasn't a dragon, it was a bigass Garda.';

'>>92616708
>Again, could be mixing up my lore though
Argh I wish I'd saved it, but there's a sidebar referring directly to Creation being Gaia's body and Auto deciding she's been too neglectful and caging it which has repercussions on the ecosystem. Again, really wish I could offer more of a citation than "it was revealed to me in a dream" but I swear I saw that sidebar posted in these threads.

>the current devs don't actually know what they want
Further evidence to this for me comes from the Chivalry of Death. Based on a certain example NPC and commentary about the concept I was very concerned that they were attempting to whitewash Abyssals. Then the Abyssals manuscript came out and...it's literally just what Abyssals were told to do in prior editions, except they dance around the A M B I G U I T Y of it like that's some sort of profound writing decision. The whole thing came across to me like they were testing the waters with Friendly Neighbourhood Abyssals and ultimately decided it wasn't worth the reaction.';

'>>92616965
>Based on a certain example NPC and commentary about the concept I was very concerned that they were attempting to whitewash Abyssals.
Seriously? The samples from AotR made me want to punch the writers in the face.';

'>>92617051
I'm specifically thinking of Bleeding Lily who was a walking red flag for me in terms of what I thought the Chivalry of Death was going to be about.

>noble
>romantic
>deeply devoted to the oaths she swears';

'>>92617161
The "worshipful hatred" and that Abyssal tomb raider were far bigger redflags';

'>>92616682
>3e was supposed to have a pseudo metaplot with seasons.
[citation needed]
>>92617161
It seems like your friendly neighborhood Abyssals are those that stick solely to ruling the dead. There's nothing in the Chivalry of Death that demands you harm ghosts or other residents of the Underworld, just the living.';

'>>92617482
The Lily explicitly shows mercy to LIVING criminals who show true contrition when exacting justice on behalf of her dead subjects tho, that's about as big a violation to the Chivalry of Death as it gets

Like I cannot stress enough how I thought the Chivalry of Death was going to be something completely different based on the Lily's writeup making no indication that was a contradiction of it at all.';

'>>92617482';

'Are the any agricultural charms?';

'>>92617557
Not seeing anything that states that all punishments for the living mandates death.
>>92617643
So you mistook a release schedule for a metaplot?';

'>>92617772
Not directly, they could exist but it's just so niche it's unnecessary.';

'>>92617935
>Better long torment than a quick death
She's not enabling despair, the abandoning of hopes and ideals, or forcing the victims to be complicit in horrors
>Let life be drowned in death
Nor does she appear to be actively expanding her kingdom, for that matter';

'>>92617772
Like what?';

'>>92617935
>So you mistook a release schedule for a metaplot?
No, it isn't a hard meta plot but a pseudo one.
It is closer to 1e Promethean.';

'>>92617772
There's some that can be used for the purpose, but I don't think there's any are any specifically agriculturally focused ones unless you count stuff like Wyld Shaping Technique or Chirality Prohibition Index which lets you make/reshape areas of land

>>92617643
>>92618039
Do sorta agree with the other anon that it doesn't quite prove a metaplot, it does prove that 3E was going to have 'seasons', if you can find anything talking about 'seasons' being set chronologically after earlier ones it would though';

'>>92617977
Sure, but refreshing myself on how their Limit rules work, Abyssals don't incur their Limit through going against the Chivalry of Death. They lose Limit through upholding it with meaningful effort, but if an Abyssal would rather consolidate their underworld kingdom than endlessly expand, they're free to do so without melting and turning into a skeleton, turning all the grain in a five mile radius into maggots, getting forced to do things by the neverborn, etc. Its why half the Deathlords advocate a pragmatic and self-serving adherence to the Chivalry of Death by going through the motions to keep the Neverborn off their ass rather than venerating them.';

'>>92616400
Holden needs someone with a megaphone screaming "EVERYONE GETS IT. THEY DON'T LIKE. NOT LIKING IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T GET IT." In his office.

>"Lunars can't be Alex Mercer"
Why?
>"You JUST DON'T GET IT LUNARS ARE WITCHES-"
Stop saying witches you've used that word a million times it doesn't mean anything use a different word.
>"N U M I N O U S "
>"Also: no artefacts in exvswod you're playing Hunter and you'll like it."';

'>>92618290
Regardless the original point of what I said is that at the time Adversaries came out I had no idea what the Chivalry of Death was actually going to be about and she gave me a very bad impression of it.

I wasn't talking about the actual applicability of the Chivalry.

>>92618351
To be fair, all the writers not just Holden need to be slapped upside the head for using NUMINOUS';

'>>92617957
it's not really that niche, horticulture and horticulture artifacts would be pretty important
>>92617772
Lunars have Moon and Earth Blessing, Solars don't have shit unless you technically count craft, Janest gets a few things.';

'>>92618351
Like >>92618518 said, some of this brainrot has infected the current writing team too especially when it comes to Lunars.';

'Me and my ST are hashing out White Veil style at the moment in Qwixalted. It's fun so far, but the main limitation is reigning in mote costs for the purposes of not increasing anima that much, since the main line styles have the luxury of just giving willpower costs and arbitrarily making it smaller.';

'>>92617772
The only ones I know of are Jadeborn charms.';

'>>92618174
>Do sorta agree with the other anon that it doesn't quite prove a metaplot, it does prove that 3E was going to have 'seasons', if you can find anything talking about 'seasons' being set chronologically after earlier ones it would though
Unfortunately I don't have the others, but the "metaplot" was part of their obsession of everything being a story in itself, Charms, artifacts, the corebook and the release schedule.

It isn't like the one of old world of darkness, but more of an adventure module.';

'>>92615955
Are you sure';

'>>92605598
Who would triumph over the other, the Exalts, or the Xeelee from the Xeelee Sequence?';

'>>92620206
Exalts. Take a Solar exalt for example. First he activates his scene length perfect defenses and becomes invulnerable to all Xeelee attacks. Five seconds later, he activates his Archery Combo Of Doom, and proceeds to autohit and autokill the nightfigher. Eyes of the Unconquered Sun + Accuracy Without Distance + There Is No Wind + Soul Mastery. "I can see anything, I can shoot at anything I can see, I automatically hit anything I shoot at, and I automatically kill anything I hit."';

'>>92620327
> First he activates his scene length perfect defenses
This doesn't exist. This alone proves the rest of your post is just wiki-only babble.';

'>>92620399
Either way the Solars still win pretty easily though. The Xeelee Sequence is a setting that has to adhere to the real world laws of physics. The Exalts cram the laws of physics into a ball and play soccer with it.';

'>>92620418
They also don't really do that unfortunately if you read the games. It was the most surprising thing about getting familiar with Exalted rather than being introduced to it - all of the stuff that people on forums hype up about Solars is just...not true. Most of their greatest feats involve beating up Shinma which any Exalt or even Fae could theoretically do';

'>>92620453
Nah, the exalts are pretty OP cause a lot of their abilities are just "I win" buttons basically. Taking the Lunars for example, who aren't even the most powerful exalts, they have They have a scenelong charm which lets them always be slightly faster than the opponent as well as another one that says "if I survive one of your attacks you can never hurt me." Not to mention that the Solars can easily become immune to environmental damage which is essentially what the gravity-based starbreaker weapons of the Xeelee are.';

'>>92620479
>if I survive one of your attacks you can never hurt me."
Wasn't it for a single form of damage?';

'>>92620479
What do we call these sorts of people who have never read the books?';

'>>92620623
If you can think of a single setting more powerful than the Exalted universe you're welcome to try but you won't find it.';

'>>92620654
The avarage xanxia?';

'>>92620686
Exalted is a Xanxia setting.';

'>>92620706
That doesn't contradict what he said';

'>>92620722
Most Xanxia settings don't have infinite attacks like Exalted does.';

'>>92620654
Nobilis + Glitch, Godbound, cosmic end D&D/Pathfinder across most editions, Warhammer 40k, this is just TTRPGs only.
>BUT A SOLAR DAWN CAN BEAT A PRIMARCH
true, but Exalted has a lot of inbuilt weaknesses in a lot of areas that other settings make up for in boatloads. No casual sustainment of invulnerability, low scale teleportation and battlefield removal, low numbers of forces they can bring to bear, usually city level destruction except in a few instances which universally never get beyond 'country' level.

Exalted is not that sort of setting. Exalted aren't weaksauce, but actually consider some of the shit that high level characters do in those settings compared to Exalted.

I don't think it's innately good that Exalted is not that sort of setting, nor do I think Exalted is 'worse' than those other settings. I vastly prefer Exalted. But we shouldn't perpetuate the same misconceptions that got both you and me into the game expecting to parry planets, fight millions of soldiers in armies or even lifting a mountain. Yeah, isn't that crazy? You can't lift something like Mount Everest in Exalted unless you're bigger than the mountain ala Primordials, even with Nine Aeons Thew.';

'>>92620735
>Warhammer 40k
Warhammer 40k is bitch-tier compared to Exalted. There's nothing to stop an exalt from subverting the entire Imperium to their will through charms.';

'>>92620752
Travel distance and the fact their charms aren't that fast. They (Solars, because we all know you mean Solars) aren't even really able to properly combat their weaker counterparts in their home setting with it. I wish there was a version of Exalted out there that was as strong as you think it is though, because it'd be cool to be in an actual stupid OP high lore setting.';

'>>92620706
Not really, Infernals don't have jade-like-skin shintais, dynasts aren't as cartoonic evil, Deathlords are too self-indulgent, lunars aren't all otherworldly beautiful sages, Hearteaters aren't canon and Solars don't come with a built-in "grandpa: devotion" defining Intimacy.

Sidereals could fit in';

'>>92620776
Given how easy teleportation is in the setting travel distance doesn't really matter. It's basically impossible to beat the exalted in a sci-fi setting because no matter how much armor you stack on, now matter how technological superiority you have, the exalts don't give a shit, they operate based on narrative superiority, they don't care about physics, their entire setting is oriented around one rule: Exalts always win.';

'>>92620801
>Given how easy teleportation is in the setting travel distance doesn't really matter.
nta but play games and read the books.';

'>>92620822
You read the books. Exalts have a ton of ways to close distance very quickly.';

'>>92620206
The Xeelee couldn't even handle the Photino Birds, how the fuck are they gonna handle a Solar?';

'>>92620933
Mote tap him.';

'>>92621488
They'll be dead before they get the chance. Or the Solar will mind-rape them into serving their will. Or the Solar will be so sneaky they have no idea where they are as they're getting shanked to death. Or the Solar will just rewrite the laws of physics so that gravity no longer exists and they cease to be a thing.';

'>>92619350
Does QE not have the mute keyword?';

'1e: Mountain-Crossing Leap Technique isn't in the core, but comes out in Castebook: Night as an E4 charm that lets you jump over a mountain like pre-flight Superman.
2e: MCLT is basically unchanged but is now a corebook charm.
3e: MCLT functions similarly- you now can take fall damage if you get fucked with at 10,000 feet though (better grab a resistance charm or two) and it's an E3 charm, which is cool. Sorcery is available at E1 now, so it's a little weird that a Twilight nerd sorcerer can personally move over long distance better than a Night Caste gymnast at two different Essence levels, but it's fine.
EE: MCLT is still E3 and now it lets you... Jump two range bands into the air or 3 horizontally. When you land you can do a PS4 Spider-Man ground pound attack (only against extras!)

Hell yeah brother';

'>>92621527
There are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many Xeelee for the entire Exalted host to fight, and they'd never get a chance to pull of a Sorcerous Working like that since it takes a lot of time and effort, and the Xeelee time travel. It's also ignoring the fact that Exalted mind control isn't great and can be defended against.';

'>>92621728
No, probably one of the bigger missing things from the system when it comes to White Veil specifically since adapting "The Dragon" charms are costly.

I think I suggest to my ST a Technique to upgrade the 3 point advantage in the Form to mute most of the Techniques in that style, maybe just mute them by 2m if I'm feeling really ungenerous. No reason why White Veil Exalts should be less subtle than say, a God or Enlightened Mortal.';

'>>92620706
Its wuxia, which is good as xianxia/cultivation stuff is universally terrible and Exalted should therefore strive to avoid association with it.';

'>>92616576
>At least in 2e
Not sure what book of 1E the topic is covered, but if helps, 2E's was from Roll of Glorious Divinity book 1 (gods and elementals).';

'>>92622276
In 1e, Games of Divinity implies that LEDs are the children of the Elemental Dragons.';

'>>92620735
1 and 2e had ways to generate infinite motes to produce infinite perfects.';

'>>92621854
>Exalted mind control isn't great
Needing 1 success on a diff 1 roll to eternally make you their bitch isn't good? You must be some 3e playing shitter whose entire social is shut down too easily.

1e Chad's gotta show you limp dicks how it is done.';

'>>92605598
differences between exigents manuscript & backer pdfs, appendix, Umbrals
>when shadow's control/influence cause harm to something/one you have tie to/violate principle, roll (intimacy+1) die, losing penumbra =successes
>anima powers named: immune to dark power=Child of Night; 1/day power=Voice of Corruption; free bonfire power=Shroud of Darkness
>can do 2nd circle sorcery and 1st circle necromancy
>Inner Darkness Unleashed, no special activate
>Shadow-Caging Concentration rebuy Ess 2 from 3, waives wp 1/day not story
>Shade-Gaoler Discipline Ess 2 from 3, you lose penumbra & gain wp for upholding intimacy
>Everlasting Night Technique no prereq, diff to leave darkness (high Ess/3), no rebuy
>Shadow-Limb Manipulation can't grapple past close range, may special reflex activate Inr Drks Unls
>Baleful Darkness Razors 2m from 3m
>Fervid Nightmare Exploit Ess 1 from 2
>Subtle Gloaming Fingers 2m from 4m, double 9s aid any fine manipulation roll
>Engulfing Darkness Approach Ess 2 from 1, prereq Evlt Ngt Tcnq
>Grasping Shadow Coils lets shadow limbs grapple at full range then drag to close
>new charm Grasping Midnight Phantasm, Ess 3 permanent, (+3m, 1wp), prereqs Evlt Ngt Tcnq & Faithless Shadow Betrayal: when using Shrd of Drks, pay surcharge to make darkness diff terrain
>Tormented Conscience Confession not strict influence roll
>Vengeful Shade Awakening new prereq Traitor-Shade Surveillance only
>All Night's Labors prereq now Sbtl Glmg Fngs, subsumes effect of removed charm concept Flowing Shadow Panoply
>Overwhelming Brutality Approach 4m from 5m, no attack roll autosucc
>Scornful Dismissal Reproach no max to i break bonus for crashing enemy, no waived cost
>Killing Shadow Dance does (penumbra/2, round up) decisive attacks only, gains bonus i at penumbra 6+ not only w/Sdw-Lmb Man
>Heart-Darkening Blight not psyche effect specifically, no resist
>Agony-Shrouding Darkness 4m from 3m, withering-only, use penumbra not sta to calc soak
cont...';

'>>92622644
Creating an anti-mental defense that would work against most standard forms of UMI isn't hard with advanced sci-fi tech. It does get trickier with SWLiHN Charms though. Still, Exalts have no real defense against traveling back in time before they Exalted and killing them.';

'>>92620623
Secondaries, I guess. Or does that just apply to people who are fans of adaptations of some work without being familiar with the original? Or would RPG secondaries be people who have read the books but not played the game? Terminology aside, what I wonder more is what do these people even get out of Exalted. Like, I can understand finding just reading the books fun even without playing the game, and I would never have bothered getting an Exalted game going if I hadn't gotten anything out of just reading about the setting, but some people seem to just read Internet discussions about Exalted.';

'>>92622644
2e mindcontrol just requires one charm for a scenelong fuck you that even dragon-blooded got.';

'>>92622745
>Still, Exalts have no real defense against traveling back in time before they Exalted and killing them.
I actually think devs have mentioned shaping defenses would cover that';

'>>92622679
Oh, thanks, I thought you had abandoned it';

'>>92620776
there is, it's called high-essence exalted';

'>>92621854
>and the Xeelee time travel.
Keep in mind that the Xeelee's time travel is literally just "going faster than the speed of light". Since the Lunars can go faster than their enemies, the Lunars can ALSO time travel even harder than the Xeelee can, and go back to the beginning of the universe to stop the Xeelee from ever spawning.';

'>>92620801
>Given how easy teleportation is in the setting
you mean one of the things that are baked into the setting as prohibitively difficult, right below the impossibility of true resurrection?';

'>>92623385
First off nothing in the setting is actually impossible, second, teleportation doesn't even come up as one of the things that's difficult.';

'>>92605598
>>92622679
>Darkness-Soul Fortification Ess 2 from 3, prereq now Agony-Shrouding Darkness
>Fatal Premonition Focus 1i from 2i, perilous
>Touch of Night's Respite now Darkness Makes Whole, the name of old charm concept
>Depraved Heart Anticipation has same def benefits at penalty
>Foreseen Malice Intuition won't enhance Dprv Hrt Atcp but negates penalty
>Umbral Caul Rebirth subsumes former effect of Darkness Makes Whole
>All-Consuming Despair, 4m from 3m, mute, adds (penumbra/2) charm resolve vs influence opposing your/shadow's negative intimacies based on cynicism/pessimism or would inspire/instill positive emotions intimacies based on them
>Darkness Catches Up Ess 1 from Ess 2, prereq now Dark Impulse Discovery
>Elegant Monster Soliloquy 1m from 2m
>Seized-by-Terror Technique Ess 1 from 2, 4m from 3m, supplemental, prereq now Elgt Mnst Slq, applies penalties for scene to all rolls of threat roll target: Ess 2 may pay 1wp surcharge to use on threat roll to multitargets
>Appeal to Darkness 3m from 4m, adds 1 noncharm succ to any bargain/instill/persuade roll
>Haunted Mind Meditation bonus now +2 charm guile, +3 at penumbra 6, becomes noncharm from mind read attempt
>Night-Prince Majesty, you don't need shared language to communicate w/target
>Truth-in-Shadow Technique penalty now -2 for any roll vs guile, intimacy/bad intent penalty -3
>No Second Chances 2m from 3m, bonus is vs any influence roll, becomes noncharm if vs negative tie/successful profiled/read intent charac, no bonus resolve amount
>All-Seeing Shadow Eyes Ess 1 from 2, 1 penumbra from 1 per question, reflexive instant, prereqs now Tth-n-Sdw Tcnq & Dark Impulse Discovery, can target after any guile succ, +1question/3 extra succ
>Your Worst Day prereq now Al-Sng Sdw Eys, only (penumbra/2) autosucc
>Darkened Soul Interrogation new prereq Faithless Shadow Betrayal
>Lurking Horror Presence 5m from 3m 1wp, no bonus die, reset 1/scene
cont...';

'>>92623138
Strange, because shaping defenses affect you and not the world, and as pointed out, Xeelee time travel is based off speed rather than reality warping, so literally no part of it should be a shaping effect.

>>92623379
Only if the Xeelee went back that far, and only if the Lunar was observing the Xeelee, and the Lunar would need specialized Charms to observe something moving that fast because Exalted do not automatically have lightspeed reflexes. Another problem is Lunars do not natively have space-faring forms, and are unlikely to have one outside of something like Gunstar Autochton or Heaven's Reach. If I remember correctly, Xeelee can time clone themselves too, so it isn't a one-on-one fight even when it is only one Xeelee.';

'>>92622679
>>when shadow's control/influence cause harm to something/one you have tie to/violate principle, roll (intimacy+1) die, losing penumbra =successes
Including negative Intimacies? This seems to be an attempt to address the Penumbra gain problem.';

'>>92623880
>and the Lunar would need specialized Charms to observe something moving that fast because Exalted do not automatically have lightspeed reflexes.
A general rule of thumb in the exalted universe is that while not EVERY exalt will be able to defeat an enemy from another setting, there will always be A exalt able to do so.';

'>>92623978
Exalts don't have to fight light speed enemies, so logically, even if you could make a Charm to react to things moving at that speed, nobody would have it.';

'>>92624000
>Exalts don't have to fight light speed enemies
They probably have at some point. If all it took was speed to defeat the exalts, someone would've come along who was really fast and beaten them by now.';

'>>92624000
>>92624005
I always thought that they kind of did, because combat speed can get really esoteric.';

'>>92624005
Exalted is famously a very slow setting for how powerful it is. Their travel artifacts are worse than modern vehicles and even Adjoran and the Five-Metal Shrike aren't moving at a significant speed fraction of the speed of light. It's weird to assume anything ever moved that fast in the setting.';

'>>92605598
>>92622679
>>92623187
not in the home stretch, man. but i did lose my post typing it and got apathetic at a point, and then a lot of stuff happened. this is probably the last one
>>92623593
>Shadow-Riding Step now Shadow-Walker's Grace, 4m from 3m, also aids conceal track rolls
>Ascending Darkness Stance now Darkness Rising Ascendency (?)
and that's the whole of it. for people that pride themselves on being so erudite, they need a thesaurus for shadows and darkness on a kingdom hearts level, goddamn
all in all, the book is alright. there's fun effects in there. it'll be a useful if sometimes vague and unthorough toolboox for making splats or just charms and spells and the like. still, i feel with just 5+ pages more of setting in every splat and setting chapter, the exigents would feel more cohesive and lived in to the setting. i know older edition material is seen more as suggestions for 3e than precedence, but they left a lot of potential worldbuilding on the table by throwing it all at great forks and hoping it would stick. some more artifacts, spells, and charms wouldn't have hurt either. still, i was mostly in it for the apocryphals and saw enough to still prefer them conceptually over exigents, though there is some fun stuff to play with if you dig into it';

'>>92623958
it does seem to read as any tie or violated principle. here's the text
When the Shadow’s influence or control over
the Umbral causes her to harm someone or
something she has a Tie toward or to violate a
Principle, she rolls (Intimacy + 1) dice, losing
Penumbra equal to her successes.
in general, charms that grant or take penumbra seem to be rewritten as more forgiving, though there is a clear bonus for charms when penumbra is high';

'>>92623402
>teleportation doesn't even come up as one of the things that's difficult.
lmao. everything in the game disagrees with you.';

'>>92624204
Understand.

>this is probably the last one
It is.

>they need a thesaurus for shadows and darkness on a kingdom hearts level, goddamn
The problem is that Umbrals are pretty limited concepts wise.
They need to eat the Bleak Warden for more concept space.

>>92624250
Thanks, accumulating too much Penumbra was a complaint about their gameplay lop.';

'>>92623880
>Strange, because shaping defenses affect you and not the world, and as pointed out, Xeelee time travel is based off speed rather than reality warping, so literally no part of it should be a shaping effect.
IIRC, it gets into how Exalted metaphysics works, but from what I recall the general gist of it is that in Exalted changing history is considered shaping by default, as you're setting the current universe to a new state that it's previous history wouldn't allow, and given the Exalt is part of said universe, they can resist it
Mind you, from the Exalt's perspective they're suddenly exist in a completely different world where their parents, friends, events, ect don't exist and never have, while from the timetraveler's perspective the Exalt they thought they retcon'd out of existence just popped back into existence one day at the moment that would've been metaphysically 'now' at the 'time' of the change for said Exalt, completely unchanged by said changes but very confused and likely extremely angry';

'>>92622745
>>92623138
>>92623880
>>92624587
Reminder that the Yozi have the ability to reach backwards through time and change events. The Surrender Oaths currently limit it to only 5 days into the past, prevents them from directly affecting Creation, and prevents them from affecting anyone that isn't their creation or servant, but back during their height the Yozi could strangle someone's grandfather in the crib and the Exalted still kicked their ass';

'>>92623402
>First off nothing in the setting is actually impossible
no, you're retarded. there are things specifically stated to be impossible.';

'>>92624828
It is more of "put it out of PC hands" than impossible!impossible.';

'>>92624889
NO.';

'>>92624691
reminder this was a 2e retcon and 2e has the literal worse lore.';

'>>92624828
Not quite, there are things to setting regards as impossible, and things are sending in regards as “impossible“. Both of those things are also noted as something an Exalt can do only through extreme effort (and no small amount of ST fiat because there’s no actual mechanics for such things, other than whatever the storyteller has deemed is an appropriate amount of narrative effort put into doing it), but the things that are typically regarded as flat out impossible in the setting are noted not as things characters can’t do, but things the ST shouldn’t allow them to do unless he’s thought very hard about it as they would break the tone and theme of the setting. The lore does tend to dabble with most of them in various places though, but they are all presented as plot hooks, what ifs, or bad ideas';

'>>92624961
Still canon, and not a retcon as it doesn’t contradict anything preestablished
Actually if I recall correctly, it’s also 1E canon too, as both the Primordials and the Raksha both had recon powers back before the creation of Creation, but its existence limited such abilities to just the Yozi. 2E just provide mechanics and an explanation for why the Yozi don’t use it to undo their imprisonment';

'>>92625062
> and not a retcon as it doesn’t contradict anything preestablished
Time travel was impossible from 1e.
>Actually if I recall correctly, it’s also 1E canon too
No
>as both the Primordials and the Raksha both had recon powers back before the creation of Creation
Raksha still do have that power, but the fact the house of the primordials exists means we'll never interpret Raksha being able to unshape themselves from being shaped death as 'real'. There is nothing about them twisting Time once Creation existed though, that's your headcanon.
>but its existence limited such abilities to just the Yozi
Like I said, your colorful headcanon.
don't care.';

'>>92625087
>Raksha still do have that power, but the fact the house of the primordials exists means we'll never interpret Raksha being able to unshape themselves from being shaped death as 'real'.
So they have the same power as the Yozi do when it comes to retconning events, got it

>There is nothing about them twisting Time once Creation existed though
Which was what I said? The act of Creation caused them to lose that ability
Unless you're talking about the Primordials, which I do think it's mentioned even in 1E that they used temporal weaponry at one point

And finally
>Time travel was impossible from 1e.
Point to me where in 1E it says that, page number please
And then I'll dig up the line about how 'Impossible' in Exalted just means 'You'll be the first', but jokes aside, I am curious if you can find something, the only reference to them being impossible as far as I know in the Book of Three Circles, where it states such things are outside the scope of Charms and Spells, NOT that they don't exist in the setting, just that you'll have to find some other way to do so

Forgot half a sentence, what I get for reorganizing my post';

'>>92624987
no. there have always been restrictions from certain things happening. actual teleporting, backwards time travel and resurrection.';

'>>92625286
>So they have the same power as the Yozi do when it comes to retconning events, got it
I don't think you understand what Shaping is, defined from 1e Fair Folk.
>Which was what I said? The act of Creation caused them to lose that ability
Nope, they can still do it...in the Wyld. Like the Raksha can, and Lunars can.
Shaping/Unshaping was the natural order of things before Creation created what we now know forever as existence. It's not that Shaping/Unshaping changed fundamentally, it's that the frame of reference is entirely out of scope.
>which I do think it's mentioned even in 1E that they used temporal weaponry at one point
2e
>Point to me where in 1E it says that, page number please';

'>>92625389
>>Point to me where in 1E it says that, page number please
page 21 of Book of 3 Circles.';

'Actually how the fuck did the exalts beat the primordials when they had time-travel bullshit on their side';

'>>92624828
>>92624987
Literally nothing in the setting is impossible. There's a primordial whose entire concept is doing impossible things, so even if something is impossible, you can just punch him until it's possible. Or you can punch the shinma, and rewrite the laws of reality to make it possible.';

'>>92625389
>>92625433
Ah, it seems I was wrong, those are the limits of Sorcery, not charms
Time travel in Creation is easier than I thought then
But yeah, upon rechecking that line doesn't specify if it's limited to just Sorcery or the setting as a whole unlike most of the other ones, so I see your argument there, but I'll point out again those are just the limitations on magic and just above it it notes that those are guidelines and not hard and fast rules, albeit ones adjudicated by the ST

>>92625442
As the other anon mentioned, Shaping defenses actually cover rewriting history. Only the thing covered by an active Shaping defense is unchanged though. The rest of the universe gets retconned.';

'Anyone have any homebrew for alchemicals? Ideally 2e. They’re my favorite splat, but I never see anything for them.';

'Is there any reason to keep Virtues in the game if I'm running an Essence game? They don't seem to do anything.
Also, how would I port the Inspire action over to Essence? It seems weird that it's missing.';

'>>92623402
anon it's the second most common example of a "nigh-impossible" thing in the books, exalts sailed around on silly airships even in the first age for a reason';

'I'm not against Exalts having anti-time travel Charms, but shaping defenses shouldn't work since it isn't a shaping effect. I could see making it an expansion of shaping defense Charms though.';

'>>92626572
Nta but no? Teleportation isn’t really mentioned anywhere as something hard, it’s just… not something done with no reason ever really given. Fast travel and long distance communication aren’t explicit impossibilities just something that seems to be implied to be hard to do

>>92626736
As I said, it seems to be considered as such for metaphysics reasons. I do vaguely recall it’s only if the shaping defense is all encompassing though. If, for instance said defense only protects the Exalt from physical changes but not derangements or if it only protects from the Wyld exposure or something like that it’ll go through. Not usually a problem for Solariods, but other types may have trouble.
That said, this is all based off of a half remembered dev quote, I’m pretty sure there are not actual rules for Exalts resisting time travel effects in any edition of Exalted other than maybe something in ExVsWoD or the bit about the Yozi needing permission (and a sacrifice of a dot of willpower) to rewrite someone’s backstory';

'>>92620453
Shocked to see someone actually acknowledges that Exalted is a dumb kung fu game and not a god game. I despise people who compare it to Godbound and vice versa. Exalted doesn't even come close to that power scale nor is it intended to, it's a game about stupid kung fu fights, fucking worthless sinophile trash.';

'>>92605732
>prince
>with those hips and tits
Doubt';

'>>92626869
>I despise people who compare it to Godbound and vice versa. Exalted doesn't even come close to that power scale nor is it intended to, it's a game about stupid kung fu fights, fucking worthless sinophile trash.
Nta, and while I don't feel as strongly, I do agree. Exalted at it's core is a high powered kickass kung-fu fighting game with some really interesting metaphysics, Godbound, at best, is just simplified D&D with characters having the occasional I Win buttons. They don't come close to scratching the same itches and I'm still baffled by people who try to compare the two

>>92626903
He's just using that one heartstone that can change your sex, please understand
...Jokes aside though, your post has suddenly made me realize I can't recall a single mention of a "Green Sun Princess" anywhere in the books';

'>>92624267
There has been teleportation effects at the CCS level since 1e. And the teleport blocker has been a TCS spell since 1e. It's not that teleportation is rare, it's that any wizard worth a shit learned the counter to it in grade school.';

'>>92627042
Yeah, if Teleportation isn't a thing, why are there charms that have the qualifier of "Wards against Scrying or Teleportation block this effect"?';

'>>92626869
Exalted exceeds that power scale because they killed the cthonic creators of their universe in direct confrontations. Their powers scale infinitely upward.

However, dull witted devs take this and go "uhhh that means a t-rex should be a hard fight fight right?" When they have Charms that stop any attack and permanently kill anything by WHIRRRRRing it's spirit on the ground floor of their power set.';

'>>92627079
>Exalted exceeds that power scale because they killed the cthonic creators of their universe in direct confrontations.
In a kung-fu fight though

>Their powers scale infinitely upward.
Eh, sorta, but it's not the 'Reshaping reality' sort of power, they can do it, but it's not what they specialize in. It's their capacity to kick ass that scales infinitely upwards, not god like powers';

'>>92627012
>He's just using that one heartstone that can change your sex, please understand
Oh, you'd know if he was.';

'>>92627247
It takes a week to finish it's effect, clearly that first pic was just him midway through';

'>>92625442
>Actually how the fuck did the exalts beat the primordials when they had time-travel bullshit on their side
Exalted could also time travel before time travel was banned. Especially in the Sidereal set you can see a lot of places where the time travel ban gutted their charms and had to be worked around to have them still work - stuff like Avoidance Kata or Ceasing to Exist Approach.

>>92627104
>in a direct confrontation
>In a kung-fu fight though
nta but neither of those are actually confirmed. We don't know how the Exalted killed the Primordials in the books (there might be some noncanon devposts) and given all the talk of how they got supplied with a bunch of superweapons there's an equally good chance they were generally just bomb delivery mechanisms rather than fighting directly. The only methods that can be confirmed to have made Primordials into Neverborn are Pattern Spider Touch and Ghost-Eating Technique, from memory of 2e.';

'>>92627267
>nta but neither of those are actually confirmed. We don't know how the Exalted killed the Primordials in the books (there might be some noncanon devposts) and given all the talk of how they got supplied with a bunch of superweapons there's an equally good chance they were generally just bomb delivery mechanisms rather than fighting directly. The only methods that can be confirmed to have made Primordials into Neverborn are Pattern Spider Touch and Ghost-Eating Technique, from memory of 2e.
There's also bits about an Exalt strangling a Primordial with her bare hands, so we know there was at least some hand to hand fighting between Exalts and Primordials
If you want to go off of 2E we know that stuff like Thousand Forged Dragons (mecha dragons that eat Leylines and can nuke things), Directional Titans (giant floating city sized aircraft carriers that can launch said Dragons and nuke things), and I think the Exalted equivalent of ICBMs (I forget what they're called) were only invented AFTER they beat the Primordials, as it was noted as a common source of political debate in the First Age between Solars about if they even needed to maintain such things as they didn't need any of that to beat the Primordials and the Wyld's never spit up anything that they really needed such things for only other Solars or an alliance of DBs and Sids were that big of a threat
So yeah, we know what things they didn't use, and it turns out they didn't use most of the more 'modern' First Age weaponry to beat the Primordials';

'>>92627012
Godbound is a game about playing as godlike beings, meaning it is principally about civilizations, cults, societies, and the like. Combat is simplistic and not the purpose of the game. Exalted is a game about playing as a kung fu warrior with kung fu magic who battles other kung fu magic warriors, but people like to lie and claim it's much more than that.';

'>>92627502
>but people like to lie and claim it's much more than that.
I wouldn't say they lie, as the game does try to have systems for such things and the devs have mentioned they intended for it to be part of the game, but it's very clear the kung-fu is the focus of Exalted and governing cults and societies is just a vehicle to prop that up, while the reverse is true for Godbound';

'>>92627542
It is more fantasy WoD';

'>>92626839
The more I think of time travel involved in Exalted, the more confused I get. For example, if you've used anti-shaping Charms in the past, there are multiple points in history where you should be immune to having your past screwed with. And what if time travel is used to prevent your prior reincarnation's death? Does he just wink out of existence when you come around? What if he's using a shaping defense?';

'>>92628192
These questions heavily influenced my subsystem for ExWoD [that will probably never come up] on this subject. The short version is that time travel actually produces a half-real Tellurian called a “time bubble” that when it collides with the real Tapestry when the time travel effect ends, produces a global Shaping Action. So if you go back 10 years you’ll find yourself in Timeline B, while you’re from Timeline A. Timeline B isn’t real until it connects with Timeline A at the end of the time travel event, but functions as fully real while you’re in it. Both timelines once in existence proceed at equal pace, time traveling again instead produces Timeline C. If you muck about with time too much a few uber-Mages and Spirits will come by to call you a faggot.';

'>>92628192
>The more I think of time travel involved in Exalted, the more confused I get. For example, if you've used anti-shaping Charms in the past, there are multiple points in history where you should be immune to having your past screwed with.
Again, gets back to how Exalted's metaphysics works (or at least how it's been explained in dev comments, I think the closest the books outright state any of this is how the Loom of Fate and Samsara works), and the reason I've avoided going into detail about it is because I'm not 100% sure I understand it to be honest.
But from what I think I understand, things have a history, but no past. There is a 'Now' and the events leading up to the 'Now', but only the 'Now' is real, not the past. You can change the 'Now' by changing the past but since you're reshaping a trait of reality/'Now' it's a shaping effect and since the past doesn't actually exist there is no other point in the past when your shaping effect would have been applied
>Tl:dr, time is not a dimension in Exalted's metaphysics, only the current state of existence is real and 'time' is just it changing to a new state like in a state machine, temporal manipulation is Shaping because you're forcing the state of said state machine to another state (and probably fucking up the Loom in the process)

>And what if time travel is used to prevent your prior reincarnation's death? Does he just wink out of existence when you come around?
IIRC the comment correctly, if he's mortal, he's either fine or drops dead, if he's an Exalt, he almost certainly drops dead

>What if he's using a shaping defense?
See the bit about the past not existing

Though I think a lot of the more complicated time travel questions fall under the age old answer of "The Author/dev didn't think about this aspect, and neither should you cause the plot is ruined if you do"';

'>>92627719
>It is more fantasy WoD
That was the premise.';

'>>92628478
It just warps back around to time travel being impossible because that's just reality warping slight of hand, where you're just changing stuff in a way that looks like time travel.';

'>>92628610
Pretty much, yeah, it's why all examples of temporal chicanery in Exalted are classified under Shaping effects and even the most extreme examples are limited to retconning things. It's not actually changing the past, it's changing the present or something in the present to how it would be if the past was changed';

'>>92628610
Adding to >>92628641, this doesn't mean that said reality warping slight of hand can't be wide reaching. For instance it's implied the reason demons always knows to start the 5 day trip to Creation just in time to arrive when they're summoned, even if the summoner didn't know he would up until just before casting the spell or something, is because the Yozi are retconning the demon's actions. It's still not time travel though, because they're changing the present to be like if the demon started the trip 5 days ago, rewritten memories included, not the spell sending a "You need to get here in 5 days" message to the demon in the past or anything';

'>>92627056
>>92627042
Because they really don't teleportation to be a thing, that's the actual reason. Travel Without Distance is fairly paltry as far as teleporting goes and is pretty much the only really 'teleport' effect in Sorcery yet gets countered easily. They don't want you doing it. Read the books.';

'>>92627267
>Exalts could also time travel before it was banned
please introduce information such as this with the preface of "in 2e where time travel was retconned to have been possible" in future
>>in a direct confrontation
>In a kung-fu fight though
>nta but neither of those are actually confirmed.
Creatures of the Wyld states that Morkelus' Primordial Creature was ambushed by a Circle and killed, simple as that.

Also, yeah, a Circle of Solar Exalted is meant to be able to kill a Primordial if they have the advantage.';

'>>92629582
Isn't there a word of Grabowski out there where he claims that while he didn't have any solid ideas on the Primordial War, he sort of assumed that the Incarna used specialized Charms to break the Essence cap?';

'>>92629582
>Creatures of the Wyld states that Morkelus' Primordial Creature was ambushed by a Circle and killed, simple as that.
Technically that neither supports or denies if his Creator was killed via kung-fu or an airstrike';

'>>92629582
>please introduce information such as this with the preface of "in 2e where time travel was retconned to have been possible" in future
Only if you start clarifying you're talking about 1e whenever you post';

'>>92629568
>Because they really don't teleportation to be a thing, that's the actual reason. Travel Without Distance is fairly paltry as far as teleporting goes and is pretty much the only really 'teleport' effect in Sorcery yet gets countered easily. They don't want you doing it. Read the books.
Faithful Ally and Unity of Dreams with their unlimited range say hi. And those are just two off the top of my head, there's a number of other teleportation effects in the lore, they just tend to require a bit of setup

>>92629582
>please introduce information such as this with the preface of "in 2e where time travel was retconned to have been possible" in future
Nah
...Though I don't actually recall Exalts having time travel charms at any point, even Sids';

'>>92629635
>Isn't there a word of Grabowski out there where he claims that while he didn't have any solid ideas on the Primordial War, he sort of assumed that the Incarna used specialized Charms to break the Essence cap?
I don't believe he said that, but in his vision the Exalted were well over Essence 5 during the Primordial War. There are a lot of ways to make that happen even in 1e, the simplest being that the War took significantly more than a hundred years of hard fighting.';

'>in 1e
>>92629641
Solars can air strike with archery. They definitely did actually engage with the Primordial though - if they did it through esoteric means not expressed in the game, it was left unmentioned.
>>92629646
I don't mind. I think 2e lore is absolute dogshit and took the worst parts of 1e lore and amplified it without giving much interesting thought outside of a scant handful of ideas.
>>92629686
Those are very limited compared to other effects in other settings - even within Exalted they're considered quite powerful though. You can't do a Warcraft/D&D and make a huge ass portal to the other side of the world, and the other teleportation effects are equally fairly restrained. It's why Sidereals use shortcuts through Yu-Shan rather than having portals that take them miles and miles away within the same world.';

'>>92629891
Do you have a source on that? I don't doubt you, as the war going on for a long time was what I always assumed, but I've seen people claim he's said the opposite about them being over E5 in previous threads';

'>>92629907
>Those are very limited compared to other effects in other settings - even within Exalted they're considered quite powerful though. You can't do a Warcraft/D&D and make a huge ass portal to the other side of the world, and the other teleportation effects are equally fairly restrained
And? They're still examples of teleportation so it's not something impossible in the setting like you've been claiming, just not too effective, which is what I've been saying this whole time';

'>>92629907
>I don't mind.
Thank you
Your posts about your weird headcanon version of 1e have been getting annoying';

'>>92629907
>Solars can air strike with archery.
>Archery lets Solars fly
All right, that's a new one to me I'll admit

>They definitely did actually engage with the Primordial though - if they did it through esoteric means not expressed in the game, it was left unmentioned.
Jokes aside, we do have some ideas of how they fought I think. The one explicit example of how the war was fought from 1E that I can recall is in the description of an artifact bow.... but I also think that was retconned as the description notes the Solar using it killed dozens of Yozi and I don't think there's ever been that many (or if there was, the Solar who did so would be VERY famous). 2E at least seems to lean on the kung fu side as it outright says that while they had good equipment, they didn't have the more fantastical magitech warmachines they'd have later in the First Age and it does give a few examples of the Exalted fighting the Primordials in hand to hand combat (such as Merela killing a Primordial bare handed)';

'>>92629908
>>92629891
http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/Thus_Spake_Zargrabowski/FightingThePrimordials

He never answer it outright, just says “It could have involved E8-9 Exalts in mecha’. Second Edition states outright it happened at E1-5 and involved physical Asura Wrath style manhandling.';

'>>92630105
Ah, thank you
Interesting that 1e went the high powered magitech demigod route while 2e went the just superhuman kung-fu route, I'd have honestly thought it was the other way';

'>>92630054
>weird headcanon
None of what I've said is weird headcanon though. Meanwhile you've made constant baseless references to "iirc afaik i swear it was in 1e somewhere" tier headcanons. I don't get why you pretend to not care about 1e yet also desperately seek 1e validation about things, it's pretty pathetic ngl.
>>92629928
No one said the act of teleportation was impossible, all of the replies >>92623402 here are either dunking on you for saying NOTHING is impossible or rebutting your claim teleportation was not difficult.';

'>>92630105
Grabowski has some weird ass fucking opinions, like 3cds not being statted, but then Solars being able to beat the Unconquered Sun, but then the whole Kukla thing happened under his watch. What was his problem?';

'>>92630168
>No one said the act of teleportation was impossible, all of the replies >>92623402 here are either dunking on you for saying NOTHING is impossible or rebutting your claim teleportation was not difficult.
See >>92626572
A sorcerous spell is a far cry from nigh-impossible';

'>>92630180
He’s a generally good designer and had a clear vision for the game, he just had a few poor decisions in that most of which can be summarized as his neglecting high level play in a game like this and what ideas he had for it were by his own admission never actually intended to be used.';

'>>92630168
>I don't get why you pretend to not care about 1e yet also desperately seek 1e validation about things, it's pretty pathetic ngl.
I'm not the one who has a history of quoting posts outright saying they're talking about 2e or 3e and getting angry that people aren't talking about 1e
There's only one of us here looking to validate 1e and it's not me';

'>>92630180
I think it's a case of him having a cool and cohesive idea for the setting, but only building the system to focus on one part of it so he didn't really try to model the bits that were supposed to stay 'off screen' so to speak';

'>>92630180
>like 3cds not being statted,
Still annoys me

>but then the whole Kukla thing happened under his watch
Isn't the line something like "100s of Celestials OR a handful of Elders"? I've always read that as it'd take a large number of 'average' Exalts or a small number of powerful/Elder Exalts';

'>>92630202
Nigh impossible doesn't mean impossible anonchama...in the context of that discussion, he was bringing up how teleportation in Exalted is very restrictive compared to Xeelee/40k/other settings, to encourage people to use boats and airships.

please provide the examples of the best mass teleportation charms or mass speed charms though. even in 2e, you needed multiple N/A artifacts for relatively simple teleportation pads (simple in the context of other settings)';

'>>92630254
First reference says “You Lose unless you’re an Elder”, second reference says “100 Celestials could take him” if memory serves. As to Third Circles Grabby says they’re as strong as Ahlat, Fetiches are much stronger. He also says Ahlat should be given persistent defenses and combos. It’s not hard to stat a First Edition Third Circle from his statements, though using them makes a complete joke of his Primordial War spitball since “Essence 8 Solar in an Artifact NA Warstrider” is massive overkill vs a slightly bumped up Bull God. They’d be shredding Third Circle Battlegroups it’d be so bad.';

'>>92630254
>Isn't the line something like "100s of Celestials OR a handful of Elders"? I've always read that as it'd take a large number of 'average' Exalts or a small number of powerful/Elder Exalts

>If over 100 Solar Exalted and potent (Essence 4+) Celestial Exalted can be summoned together to fight the Kukla, they may be able to kill it permanently.';

'>>92630283
No, I think I'll keep pointing out how you moved the goal post
>>92625371
>no. there have always been restrictions from certain things happening. actual teleporting, backwards time travel and resurrection.
>>92623385
>you mean one of the things that are baked into the setting as prohibitively difficult, right below the impossibility of true resurrection?
You said teleportation period is on par with resurrection, all I ever said on the matter was that it's not on that level and you spent several posts trying to weasel word about how it was';

'>>92630290
>He also says Ahlat should be given persistent defenses and combos. It’s not hard to stat a First Edition Third Circle from his statements, though using them makes a complete joke of his Primordial War spitball since “Essence 8 Solar in an Artifact NA Warstrider” is massive overkill vs a slightly bumped up Bull God. They’d be shredding Third Circle Battlegroups it’d be so bad.
True, but I'd still like official stats to have some idea of the intent behind them
That said, unless the intent was always to be a curbstomp in the Solar's favor, it's kinda hard to square the circle of 'Roughly equivalent to Ahlat' and 'Several hundred E8 with Warstriders', yeah

>>92630290
>>92630294
>on the Kukla
Ah, thanks, would've sworn there was an or in there';

'>>92630314
both of those posts aren't me, but I'll still defend the latter one because you're being blatantly dishonest.
>>you mean one of the things that are baked into the setting as prohibitively difficult, right below the impossibility of true resurrection?
>right below
>prohibitively difficult
Anon...this is getting very sad.';

'>>92630360
>both of those posts aren't me,
Even if they're not, the claim that no one said it was impossible was. So you're either backtracking on that claim or your previous one of teleportation being impossible, which one is it anon?';

'>>92630385
nta but technically he says "restrictions" which isn't impossible.';

'>>92630442
True, but only if he's willing to argue time travel and resurrection is likewise restricted rather than impossible
Though I feel I should note I'm mostly objecting to the stance that it's impossible and the devs don't want it to be a thing... despite having several effects that are flat out considered teleportation in every edition. Exalted doesn't really have the other two save for the occasional "It's not actually time travel/resurrection and probably a horrible, horrible idea to boot" style plot device. Comparatively teleportation is just Celestial level Sorcery. Not common, but not anywhere near the same ballpark as the other two';

'>>92628504
I meant more tropes wise, like the way powers are portrayed.';

'>>92630511
are there any good worthwhile mass teleportation / gate charms and spells across the game though? something like what raven branwen does';

'>>92630290
>slightly bumped up Bull God. They’d be shredding Third Circle Battlegroups it’d be so bad.
Ahlat is notorious understated';

'>>92630536
To my knowledge, no. Closest are some charms that can speed up the travel speed of a group who's magnitude scales with some trait or another, or a few gate style artifacts that are described in the text as big enough for that use, but have no mechanics for how much throughput they'd have other than the ST going "I guess that sounds reasonable"

>>92630569
It's a problem when the best point of reference for how powerful something should be only exists in Grabowski's head and not in the mechanics given for it';

'>>92630569
>Ahlat is notorious understated
what';

'>>92630105
Wait, so is Merela a 2e invention then? I recall that she choked a primordial to death barehanded.';

'>>92630623
tl:dr, both dev comments of how he's supposed to be and the lore really don't match the stats

>>92630638
I don't recall if she's a 2e original, but I think the fact that she killed a Primordial bare handed was
1e never really went into detail about the Exalted who fought in the war, but 2e's DotFA did cover some of them, it's where the details of her Primordial killing feat comes from if I recall correctly';

'Does your character have his own action figure /exg/?';

'>>92630607
>It's a problem when the best point of reference for how powerful something should be only exists in Grabowski's head and not in the mechanics given for it
Yes, exalted has really bad power scaling.
It is like Hashirama from Naruto.';

'>>92630804
I'm not sure in this specific instance it's a power scaling issue. If the Ahlat write-up is flat out missing traits it's supposed to have then it's a... I'm not actually sure what to call this other than stupid
That said, yeah, the power scaling is an issue. I think pinning down roughly where everything's supposed to be early on would've helped';

'>>92608612
Progenitive essence says hi. Dragonblooded can only have like one child a decade before the odds of Exaltation starts dropping dramatically.

If your bratty Dragonblooded is going around acting bratty so that their Lunar lover will "correct" them, it's not for producing superior children in any real way. It's just their fetish.';

'>>92609473
>Archery
Shoot a flurry of arrows until you miss a shot or your target Crashes, then reflexively fire a Decisive shot. It's an instant kill to anything without obscene Health Levels or an Onalaught Negator charm.';

'>>92630623
He's mechanically weaker than he should be lorewise - so obviously "understatted" rather than "understated", but I assume we all know what anon meant. Grabowski outright admitted that spirits in GoD in general are weaker than they should be in order to let mechanically inept players feel like badass Exalts, and encouraged STs with more mechanically savvy groups to buff Ahlat and other spirits to make them more formidable opponents.

>>92630804
I think Essence being such a vague measure of power, with the same rating meaning very different thing for different kinds of beings, is a part if the problem. Essence as a more objective power scale, with solid guidelines for what different Essence ratings mean, would help a lot.';

'>>92630916
>Shoot a flurry of arrows until you miss a shot or your target Crashes, then reflexively fire a Decisive shot. It's an instant kill to anything without obscene Health Levels or an Onalaught Negator charm.

yawn';

'>>92612422
Has Duck ever succeeded in any of his scams, aside from the one he pulled on Screaming Pheonix Killer in that prequel movie?

>Bones of Creation laughs it off then countertrolls by destroying the sword that he needed to save the world from the invading demon lord
>Western magistrate just goes "lol guess I'll be a criminal then"
>completely failed to manipulate the demon sisters, culminating in the Elder sister being revived, only bring saved by the weaponised autism of the fallen monk';

'>>92630964
Him failing in his scams is what makes him good. Mastermind tricksters who flawlessly pull of their schemes are dime a dozen. Watching Enigmatic Gale hopes and dreams crash when his plots fail is the real payoff of every season.';

'>>92630942
The problem is the scaling, the game lacks granularity.
Just see 3e weapons.
Avarage > high quality > one of a kind legends that nations will go to war for.';

'>>92626202
bump for this';

'Trying to understand how traveling through shadowlands works:

I'm in Creation, it's daytime, I see a SL ahead and walk into it. I'm now in the SL, which sucks but I can turn around and see Creation and I can also just walk into it again.

If I wait until night time before walking out I'm in the Underworld, I get that.

But if it's night time now and my traveling companion in Creation waited until now to follow me, can he still see me? He can see into and walk into the SL yes? But is also trapped in the underworld until daytime once he does?

Can I see HIM while he's in Creation, and I'm in the SL at night? Can I throw him a baseball? Can he throw one to me?

Do is see both Creation AND the underworld when I look past the SL's border? This feels like something that would have been discussed as it would be pretty trippy, so maybe people in Creation can see into the Shadowlands but not the reverse. This makes for a weird vulnerability- if instead of my traveling companion, I was a Dragon-Blooded shikari, he could shoot me with arrows and I'd have little recourse.

I feel like "the Shadowlands are in the underworld and Creation but you can only exit into one or the other depending on time of day" produces some weird Sidereal style nonsense that hasn't been well elaborated on.';

'I feel like at this point there are only 9 core attributes because it's a sacred cow. The only reason to not cut it down to six is "I don't want to be like le dee and dee"';

'>>92632735
The only reason to have separate Attributes and Abilities at all is it being a sacred cow.';

'>>92632735
NWoD and Onyx/Storypath also use 9 attributes just fine.';

'>>92632844
Incorrect, attribute plus ability is based';

'>>92632889
Why do you find it more based than just having Abilities, anon?';

'>>92632896
Keeps the numbers smaller, means that I can have multiple abilities that rely on the same baseline attribute';

'>>92626839';

'>>92630202
also you, see this too >>92633294';

'>>92632735
if they turned the current 9 into 6 it still wouldn't resemble dnd because you'd still need 2 physical, 2 mental, and 2 social

it's true that strength doesn't need to exist next to dexterity and stamina, and that charisma and manipulation could just be the same attribute, however there's a lot of shit built on top of those different attributes like charms that would just kind of lose their flavor without them';

'>>92630861
>>92630623
Ahlat is only understatted in the sense he’s missing a complicated combat suite, because if he had one then you’d need one to fight him. The fact the system needs this kind of ‘mastery’ to be strong is another conversation. Fixing Ahlat is as simple as giving a single persistent dodge, a semiperfect defense, a damage doubler, and some combos. Resulting in a statblock around…[warning I’m not checking my GoD so this might be a little off as it’s from memory]

Ahlat:
ACC 20 [Double result]
DMG 24
Dodge 14 [Persistent]
Soak 35
Health 33

Which is about as strong as an E4-5 Dawn, or a tad weaker if you cheese the hell put of it and use a Gundam. And on that note a perfectly reasonably place to put Third Circles who aren’t Fetiches.';

'>>92630942
>I think Essence being such a vague measure of power, with the same rating meaning very different thing for different kinds of beings, is a part if the problem. Essence as a more objective power scale, with solid guidelines for what different Essence ratings mean, would help a lot

Did this in my ExWoD game when replacing Werewolf Spirit rules with Exalted-style spirits rules. I basically just mirrored the Generation/Dharma Chart. E1-3 is Gaffling, E3-5 is Jaggling, E6-7 is Umbrood Preceptor and Lord, E8-9 is Incarnae, E10 is Celestine. Or in Exalted terms you basically bump a lot of spirits up an Essence dot or two to fit the new scale.';

'>>92633314
Still not impossible';

'>>92632735
the literal ONLY reason we have 9 core attributes is because Lunars are holding everyone else hostage. Everyone else, even the other Attribute Exalts, could survive it except Lunars.';

'>>92632735
>>92633798
What is the issue with having 9 attributes exactly?
Is it that it encourages people to put everything into one or what?';

'>>92633842
Redundancy, confusion and cost hiking.';

'>>92633798
>>92632735
>>92633342
Genuinely wondering what the hell attributes you guys would cut, because the ones we have now have been good for 20+ years';

'>>92633861
>because the ones we have now have been good for 20+ years
does anyone actually believe this or have you simply grown accustomed to the pain';

'>>92633860
I could see the redundancy and confusion argument, but I haven't really found they overlap too much in my experience and the explanation for what each is is pretty clear. Unless you're talking which Attribute + Ability combination to use for any given task and the game's pretty clear how you're doing it there is the important bit

The cost hiking seems to be part of the point though? The game is pretty clear it doesn't want you to put all your eggs in one basket statwise, hence stuff getting more expensive to level up the higher it gets, and removing an attribute(s) wouldn't really cut down on that

>>92633931
>does anyone actually believe this
nta, but I do. Never had any issues with it starting out. But then again I'm fairly used to games follow the "Skill + whatever Attribute mod the GM says" model and it's only a small step from there to here. Actually kind prefer the model they and Exalted uses as it both helps to cut down on the number of skills and lets PCs specialize in broadly applicable Skills/Abilities and Attributes and avoids leaving them hyperfocused on one thing';

'>>92633861
All white wolf games moved away from the old gri, and exponential exp too, now they use (power, finesse, resistance) × (social, mental, physical)';

'>>92634201
>The cost hiking seems to be part of the point though? The game is pretty clear it doesn't want you to put all your eggs in one basket statwise, hence stuff getting more expensive to level up the higher it gets, and removing an attribute(s) wouldn't really cut down on that
The exp system incentives the player base to put all their egg in a basket.
Since generalists are punished.';

'>>92634256
That’s not something that would be fixed by removing Attributes though.
The systems where I’ve seen Skill+Attribute works the best are ones with tiered caps on the amount of XP you can put into an Attribute and/or skill depending on the system. A simple rule like you can only raise an Attribute up to your starting value plus Essence stats would be a much better way to go in my opinion. It would no doubt require rebalancing other parts of the system though.';

'>>92634380
I meant how the game incentives a player to min-max, Supernal too since even with, it is difficult to get the stuff you want.';

'>>92633777
see >>92626572
there's no impossible in there :)';

'>>92633861
strength is kind of pointless and could just be removed with minimal adjustment

charisma and manipulation could be combined with each other with only slightly more pain than the complete removal of strength

the three mental attributes are the hardest, but i guess you could combine wits with either of the other two but it would suck either way';

'>>92634418
True, though that’s just down to bad game design as the devs are on record that characters aren’t supposed to be hyperfocused minmaxers. A tiered cap on how much XP you can put into an Attribute would actually help forestall this at least';

'>>92633861
Stamina is now part of Strength, Perception is part of Wits and Manipulation is part of Charisma.

I do think you need more than 3 though, and if you have 3 they should just buy physical, social, mental.

The Essence attributes make Lunars/Alchemicals/Getimians weird as hell because the shit you qualify for feels almost random. You make an imposing queen and she can't buy the "always know when someone has an ulterior motive" charm because it requires 3 Finesse and you thought Force and Fortitude made more sense for the character. Don't worry though, you automatically qualify for "Effortlessly shatter a wall" and "Super smart sorcerer" charms because they're Force charms.';

'>>92634529
That could be fixed by just having alternate requirements, like Finesse 3 or Fortitude 3 to use your example';

'>>92634496
Still a backtrack either way';

'>>92634634
no, the original claim was "nigh-impossible", i'm just not allowing you to move the goalposts';

'>>92634640
Nope, the claim I’m disputing is the “No one said it was impossible” one here >>92630168 when you put it on the same level of time travel and resurrection here >>92625371
As I said, you’re still backtracking unless you want to argue Exalted has those things too';

'>>92633861
Appearance shouldn't be an Attribute. CofD did it better as a merit. I'd move away from Charms being grouped by Attribute and Ability and instead by Caste like ExWoD. I could see moving over to a something more similiar to CofD's system, or fusing Strength and Stamina if only because it helps bring parity with Dex being the god stat if no one is willing to nerf it. At that point, you could just drop Perception, bringing it down to something like Physique, Dexterity, Charisma, Manipulation, Intelligence and Wits. Manipulation and Charisma shouldn't be folded together because it is bad for evil vizier-type characters who are manipulative, but too slimy to be charismatic in any way.';

'>>92634529
>>92634611
I don't even think we need attributes, they can just be abilities.';

'>>92620735
Remember, it's not a matter if a DnD character can beat someone from another setting, but rather how many levels they need to beat it.';

'>>92635418
The difference is that D&D characters are inherently limited in what they can and can't do, while exalts can do pretty much anything.';

'>>92635429
Not if you're using the spell research rules!';

'>>92635435
Maybe, but at no point does anyone in D&D get the "I win" buttons that the exalts do. There's no perfect attacks, no perfect defenses, no attacks with infinite damage, no "fuck u I'm faster" rules, etc.';

'>>92635472
I am pretty sure those are in some supplement or another.';

'>>92635386
That's how you get minmaxing no matter what you do

>>92635418
While true, there is a soft cap to things at best. After a certain point epic levels stop really boosting things that much, and I think most canon materials doesn't really portray foes sorta capping out at CR 60. That said, the number could eventually get big enough to overwhelm an Exalt, yeah, but outside of 3rd party content >>92635472 is mostly right
And I only say mostly cause things like Evasion or other "If you'd save for half, take no damage instead" style abilities could be interpreted as a Perfect Defense

>>92635509
Outside of that one 'nullify any effect' ability in The Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic, there are no first party supplements that have such things as far as I know';

'The inherent problem with comparing any setting to exalted is that there's not really a way for other settings to actually meaningfully resist. MAYBE your setting has enough military power to repeatedly throw galaxy-shattering black-hole implose nukes at a Solar over and over and over again until you've wore down their motes...

But how will you resist a social-focused Solar's charms? Or a stealth-focused Solar's stealth? Or a sorcery-focused Solar's ability to casually rewrite the laws of physics? How are you going to resist a Sidereal's ability to re-wire the strands of fate to his pleasing? How are you going to resist the Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick to destroy all reality? How are you going to prevent the Unconquered Sun from shooting his infinite Solar beam of infinite damage at you? How are you going to stop a Primordial from casually declaring your entire setting to be non-existent?';

'>>92635642
Why would you be facing all of those at once?';

'>>92635642
>Or a sorcery-focused Solar's ability to casually rewrite the laws of physics?
Wish? Reality warpers and Reality makers are fairly common.
And psychic powers inherently have a lot of mental defenses.';

'>>92635664
Because exalted has all of those at once. Not every exalt is going to have all of them, but at least one entity in exalted is going to have one of them.

Take the Xeelee Universe for example. A Xeelee Nightfighter might be a cute little piece of technology, but what's to stop Autochton from turning it to Soulsteel?';

'>>92635682
Yeah, but why would something have to worry about all of them at once?
The Yozi might not give a shit about something attacking Creation, Autocthon might not even notice, hell the Neverborn would probably help something trying to destroy Creation';

'>>92635163
>Appearance shouldn't be an Attribute
I'm inclined to agree with you, because no exalted character in history has ever chosen to have an average appearance. 99% of players will choose to be remarkably attractive, with the remaining 1% being intentionally hideous. I say get rid of the whole attribute.';

'>>92635704
Even if it's just the gods and exalts, it's still way too much for any setting to handle.';

'>>92635735
Goes back to my previous question, why would they all work together? They never really have';

'>>92635759
Theoretically if another universe was enough of a threat they might be incentivized to work together, but realistically no other universe would even be able to handle a handful of exalts so it's mostly a moot point.';

'>>92635706
My characters usually have it at 2.';

'>>92634611
That still makes it impossible to have a character not qualify for everything. Finesse 3 or Fortitude 3 as a requirement literally means there is no attribute requirement. You can't have them both at 2.

Different characters are supposed to be good at different shit.';

'>>92635772
If we're limiting it to just Exalts we still have Abyssals who are charged with 'Kill Creation' throwing a monkey wrench into things

>>92635706
>>92635776
Same, 2 is usually my goto for Appearance unless I have something more specific in mind';

'>>92633294
And yet the Greater Sign of Mercury exists and it's cheaper than travel without distance.';

'>>92635642
>How are you going to prevent the Unconquered Sun from shooting his infinite Solar beam of infinite damage at you?
I've played immortal's handbook enough to know that nothing is actually infinite, just really high.';

'>>92635642
3e ironically solves that issue any ability that does too much damage can be perfectly parried cheaply. Doing infinite damage against exalts is worse than doing 20.';

'>>92633418
source on this image?';

'>>92635642
A Sorcerous Working to alter the laws of physics isn't something that can be done casually, and outside of that, an Entity from Worm can counter pretty much all of that thanks to literally going through Cycle after Cycle looking for new ways and counters to all of that, combined with the body you're dealing with just being a projection from another dimension that's been locked outside of time and possessing some of the most broken precog there is.';

'>>92636572
Bing AI Image creator.';

'>>92636639
Exalts are blasphemous weapons designed to kill unkillable world making titans.

If they can develop Ghost Eating Technique they can develop Introducing Entities to Death Method and kill a whole entity by killing the avatar it sends to fight them.

The charms in the book aren't literally everything Exalts are capable of.

I could also see them developing Lore or Awareness charms that make them so smart and aware of your awareness of them that you can't predict them.';

'>>92636906
Ghost Eating Technique isn't absolute, see how many beings are outright immune to it.';

'>>92636973
Mardukth, Who Holds in Thrall wasn't immune to it, I see no reason why an entity would be.

Magic designed to kill the unkillable is a complete out of context problem for it';

'I feel like I've kinda become numb to the horror of Exalted, I don't really feel anything when exalts do horrible shit or some new monster of the day comes along. Is there a unique kind of horror to be had outside of the "exalts abusing their power" or "monsters terrorizing people"?';

'>>92634733
so you agree it's nigh-impossible? good';

'>>92637024
Putting yourself or your players in the same position you've fought as an antagonist in the past. As an example, after playing as a Solar evading a really pressing Wyld Hunt, playing as the Wyld Hunt going after a fairly innocent person. After playing as the god-king taking over the kingdom from the weak and corrupt rulers, find yourself in a position where you have to oppress a potentially more powerful and definitely very squirrely rebel seeking to usurp your power. It really does boil down to exalts abusing their power but changing the positions gets some mileage.

You can also go with people abusing each other pretty easily. Have some powerful but limited resource everybody wants a part of, like a powerful manse/demesne, or first age ruin, and start fighting and gutting each other over it. Have some kind of awful power being used for what is acknowledged to be the collective good and grapple with how it is, actually, awful. Have the people terrorize the local monster.';

'>>92635642
there's plenty of settings out there that have more extreme power scaling than exalted, the reason why exalted wins is actually because it's built around effective underdogs, but that isn't a guaranteed win either';

'>>92637269
The reason Exalted wins is because it's based on narrative power instead of physical power. Exalts are powerful on a meta level, in a very real sense they break the 4th wall to win.';

'>>92637288
That is what happened in the ending of Final Crisis over DC.';

'>>92637288
it's not the only setting based on narrative power or runaway reality warping';

'>>92637384
Right. Really I think the reason Exalted gets wanked is for three reasons. First it has a fairly high base power level. Characters fight armies, run dozens or hundreds of MPH, pick up elephants or buildings, and do other action anime stuff. Secondly they have a very complete powerset even if the rulesets aren’t very good at representing it. They’re not just good fighters, they’re good at stealth, at magic, at building technology, at being charismatic and so on. Thirdly they have perfects which let them just win within a narrowly defined category. Parry any blow, dodge any attack, lift any enemy, Etc. There’s definitely a lot of settings which can beat Exalted, and comparative advantage starts coming into play even with high level play of ‘normal’ games like D&D and WoD. So I’m definitely not of the opinion Solars are the strongest things in fiction, or even close. I will say however there’s not many settings where Exalted are irrelevant, where you could add the Exalted Host and say ‘nothing interesting or novel emerges out of this’. Which is more interesting anyway. It’s doubtful the Exalted could burn Marvel to the ground but you could do a whole event on it just because they have that threefold combination that not too many settings super people have. The gaps in a narrative they fill tend to shake things up even in settings which by most metrics are far stronger then the cast of Hercules Goes to Pegana.';

'>>92630906
Fuck 3e shit writing. Magic cum and ovaries is fucking retarded.';

'>>92637631

Yup.

I put breeding camps in Exalted anyway because it's kinky/fun.';

'>>92636973
That shit came after the fact by crap writers who changed the setting. "NOOOOO YOU CAN'T KILL MY SUPER SPECIAL DEADGUY, EVEN THOUGH THIS CHARM KILLED THE CREATORS OF THE UNIVERSE, YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOOOOPS" and similar nonsense.';

'>>92637013
Deathlords are GET immune. The entire reason, even in Ex2, was that the Neverborn were killed by the charm once before and it ain't gonna work again.';

'>>92637631
I just make 9/10 DB's female';

'>>92637648
Based.

>>92637714
Everyone is female if you use them like one.

>>92637702
Get that shit outta here. This only occurred because that retard Nephilpal changed shit. Everything dies to GET, period.';

'>>92637690
Solars really are too powerful for the stories the writers want the fans to play.';

'>>92637259
Honestly this sort of touches on the sort of horror that exalted isn't good at...eldritch horror. There's too much humanity in exalted, even in the monsters, to creep someone out with inhumanity.';

'>>92636906
>If they can develop Ghost Eating Technique they can develop Introducing Entities to Death Method and kill a whole entity by killing the avatar it sends to fight them.
No, that wouldn't work as a Charm, because if it did, they would've just created a Charm that could perma-kill a Primordial through their subsouls. Also, it likely wouldn't be that easy to stop Entity precog, because they have all the precog. If there is a form of precog, they probably have and use it. And if getting around precog was that easily, everyone wouldn't be scared of Sach waking up.

>>92637631
Before progenitive Essence, having too many kids in a short period of time causes premature aging and death in the mother.

>>92637518
Basically how I see it.

>>92637724
Neverborn are the result of something not dying all the way, so it clearly isn't flawless.';

'>>92637946
>they would've just created a Charm that could perma-kill a Primordial through their subsouls

They did make a similar Charm to this in the form of Yozi-Fighting Principle. Making a Charm to hit a being by knocking around its avatar would be appropriate material for a Solar Charm.';

'>>92635642
>The inherent problem with comparing any setting to exalted is that there's not really a way for other settings to actually meaningfully resist
Unless those settings play in those fields, like, say, Nobilis, Godbound, often xianxia and wuxia, several mythologies, etc. I think what you're really trying to say is that you don't see how sci-fi beats fantasy, and if that's the case then you're right. The top-end of fantasy beats the top end of sci-fi. Just don't confuse Exalted for being at the top of fantasy itself.';

'>>92638054
Yozi-Fighting Principle was created so Solars wouldn't be at a disadvantage in a fight against an Infernal because of them having subsouls. This is reflected by Yozi-Fighting Principle being an Essence 8 Charm. It would still be useful in a fight with an Entity mind you, because they have a lot of projection powers too.';

'>>92632735
dndefficients need not apply';

'>>92637108
Still backtracking on your claim';

'>>92637714
>Discover a 99% complete First Age project that would rewrite reality slightly like the Salinan Working
>Out of curiosity, boredom, and/or shits and giggles a Solar completes the last step
>Doesn't seem to do anything
>9 months later every single DB born seems to be female';

'>>92638264
nope, you're still trying to move the goalposts while i haven't moved an iota';

'>>92638303
I remember hearing that someone had a fey character in a game that wanted the world's biggest harem. He somehow got access into heaven, and with an infiltration mission managed to make it so all non-terrestrial exalts would be female.

I consider the mad lad to be the most successful fey PC I've ever heard of';

'>>92638332
Nope, my claim is, and always has been, "Teleportation is not impossible in Exalted", while you've backtracked on the “No one said it was impossible” one here >>92630168 when you put it on the same level of time travel and resurrection here >>92625371';

'>>92638135
>Yozi-Fighting Principle was created so Solars wouldn't be at a disadvantage in a fight against an Infernal because of them having subsouls.
Interestingly, the charm notes it doesn't grant the discount when you something against an Exalts subsouls then the Exalt, but it does if you start with the Exalt then target it's subsouls
That said, yeah, I'm pretty sure that'd work on an Entity. I'm not sure beating it's avatar like a redheaded stepchild would do much to the Entity though, they seem to have energy to spare to make more. Oddly, I think something that'd force open a spirt sanctum would be your best bet to get to their non-projection bits, and you could probably use the defeated projection as a doorway with the right charms

>>92638347
Brilliant';

'>>92638135

Were the first age solars even Essence 8 at the time they took down the promordials?';

'>>92638512
As previously discussed in the thread, 1E Grabowski said "It's possible", in 2E (where Yozi-Fighting Principle is from ironically enough), they were canonically all E1-5';

'>>92638532
Grabowski also said an E5 Solar can wrassle the UCS and whip his ass, meanwhile 2e makes the UCS have infinite perfects.

Clearly, there was a disconnect between a lot of things and Exalted fell victim to White Wolf's inability to scale anything or want to write anything outside of their 1-5 range.

And then when they did write anything outside that range, it was a 33/33/33% chance it was worse than E1-5 Charms, didn't work at all, or broke everything.

With a 1% chance you got something usable.';

'>>92638591
>Clearly, there was a disconnect between a lot of things and Exalted fell victim to White Wolf's inability to scale anything or want to write anything outside of their 1-5 range.
Pretty much, yeah, for a game about killing the unkillable and stating the unstatable, they really fell back into old habits with it in a lot of places';

'>>92635642
Actually the inherent problem with comparing any setting to Exalted is that crossovers are dumb, they almost always boil down to "which setting do I want to give primacy to", and only people with room temperature IQs ever take crossover powerlevel comparisons seriously.';

'>>92639593
But Exalted is a setting that contains other settings and bullies them (Primordials/Ishvara/Deep Wyld in general). Using other systems of physics and metaphysics just makes the exalted host go "fuck you we're playing by my rules".';

'>>92637690
The creators of the universe that Charm killed are still around and causing trouble, though, even if they aren't exactly alive. Also 1E core's description of GET says that it works on immaterialized spirits and explicitly states that spirits who have materialized are no longer vulnerable to it, which is kind of...not unimpressive, but not the kind of total immortality breaker people seem to consider GET to be.

>>92637724
Deathlord GET immunity has been a thing since 1E. It's canon, just deal with it.

>>92638591
>Grabowski also said an E5 Solar can wrassle the UCS and whip his ass, meanwhile 2e makes the UCS have infinite perfects.
Did he? This seems to be one of those claims where the source is "Just trust me bro, it came to me in a dream".';

'>>92639675
Nobilis says hi';

'>>92637690
>>92639736
I've always wondered if you took a Primordial behind the woodshed, I mean out into the Deep Wyld and GET'd it, would it still get pulled into the Underworld?';

'>>92635529
>That's how you get minmaxing no matter what you do

this happens already and is harder to fight back against because of how arcane attribute + abilities really is.';

'>>92639821
I'm... going to have to ask you to explain how it's arcane
I mean, a lot of systems have something like that, hell, it's what even D&D does, just with the extra step of turning the attribute into an attribute mod and calling abilities skills';

'>>92639675
>But Exalted is a setting that contains other settings and bullies them
Even in Exalted it's not true that Exalted bully everybody else. Shit's fucking tough in games when the Storyteller isn't going to play it easy on you. There are a lot of things out there in the absolute sense that laugh off GET. Even if you think Solars must be the strongest things ever, that just means Loras or any Deathlord, who have every Solar and Abyssal charm including a bunch of unpublished elder essence charms they infallibly predicted they would need and prepared earlier, will solo the entire world if they stop waxing philosophical and start fighting for real.';

'Why would the UCS lose to an essence 5 solar? Is he stupid?
More importantly, couldn't he just rip their exaltation out of them?';

'>>92640258
>Why would the UCS lose to an essence 5 solar?
He wouldn't. I've never seen an actual dev statement saying he would.

>More importantly, couldn't he just rip their exaltation out of them?
No, that just isn't how Exaltation works. It's a gift that's been given and can't be recalled.';

'>>92640078
I love reminding 2e shitters that Deathlords and Loras in that edition could fucking turbostomp them effortlessly before they even caught a whiff of Essence 3, let alone Essence 5.';

'>>92640078
I don't know anyone who actually uses the "every Solar charm" Deathlords in their campaigns. Everyone I've ever played with goes with "Deathlords are the strongest solo players next to TUS and Ligier, but an essence 5 Solar circle is their match".';

'>>92640258
>More importantly, couldn't he just rip their exaltation out of them?
No? What? Half the point of Exaltation is that the Incarnae can't rip them out or stop them recurring (well, without drastic action; they could probably blow up humanity, but that would leave them without the prayers they need to maintain high quality of life in yu shan).

>Why would the UCS lose to an essence 5 solar?
It wouldn't happen in 2e even if it theoretically could if he mostly stood there and took it without fighting back while shutting down every other virtue in favor of Compassion. A circle of Essence 5 Solars would stand a much better chance at it, but I still wouldn't call it 50/50.

>>92640366
>Everyone I've ever played with goes with "Deathlords are the strongest solo players next to TUS and Ligier, but an essence 5 Solar circle is their match".
I have never seen a person I've played with express that opinion. I've seen them say that he's overblown but nobody I've played with gargled Solar cocks hard enough to say that they're his match at E5.

This is assuming that when you say 'a circle is X's match' that you mean they usually win. I've seen it expressed plenty that they CAN win, not that it's the normal result.';

'>>92640258
>More importantly, couldn't he just rip their exaltation out of them?
The Exaltation cannot be forcibly removed by any external means whatsoever. Especially not by the gods that created them; if it could, the Primordials could simply have commanded the gods to undo their blessings and the Primordial War stops immediately after it begins. The sparks can be captured, the Incarnae and Lytek have the ability to bequeath suggestions upon them, but they cannot be directly compelled in any way. The celestial spark system was designed to be completely autonomous in case something went wrong and all the gods were destroyed.';

'>>92640471
>The Exaltation cannot be forcibly removed by any external means whatsoever
Well that's not entirely true. Soul Seal can do it, as can killing the Exalt. You can also GET the po of someone using Links Born of Tumult to separate off that part (a new one eventually grows back), and GET the hun of someone casting Crystal Ghost Shard, and if you do both in quick succession you could reasonably say that you've separated the Exaltation from every connected soul. The next reincarnation would probably have a hefty Past Lives or Throwback from all the rough edges though, like when Akuma reincarnate, but that part's ad-hoc Storytelling and not precisely canon. You can also have your Exaltation taken away by Sigereth if you ante it up in a shadow duel.

>sparks
That's planeswalkers, not Exalted. They're not shards either, that's parahumans. In Exalted we either call them souls, Exalted souls, or Exaltations.';

'>>92640471
Primordials couldn't have just commanded gods to do that, because gods aren't geased to perfect obedience, merely to be unable to directly attack the Primordials.';

'>>92640552
Killing the person and making their soul separate is not removing the spark externally, that's an entirely internal process caused by death (while death is what was caused externally).
>That's planeswalkers, not Exalted. They're not shards either, that's parahumans. In Exalted we either call them souls, Exalted souls, or Exaltations.
While affectionately called the "third soul" at times, the spark of exaltation is not actually a soul. It's not made of soulstuff, it doesn't transition to Lethe or the Underworld, it doesn't make ghosts of any variety, etc. It is just nestled between the two souls. You can't make soulsteel out of exaltations (and thank god for that because I do not want to see what horrific artifact would be wrought of celestial sparks. Metal God Frankenstein?). Exaltations and sparks are synonyms.';

'>>92640558
I believe that's accurate In 1e but in 2e they explicitly didn't put in the ability to turn them off specifically because they could be ordered to do that. Picrel is proof from pg. 32 2e Core just coming off talking about the divine geas the paragraph earlier, but doesn't explicitly say that the Incarnae could be ordered because of the geas, which was only explicitly said to be that they could not do harm to Primordials. It could be that the extra orders would simply be social attacks the Incarnae had no means to resist, which isn't really any better when you think about it for two seconds.';

'>>92640558
The Divine Geas is one thing, but I think the Celestial Bureaucracy literally ordained the Primordials at the top so their commands are rather legally absolute in any case. They could tell gods what to do but the gods were capable of interpreting these orders very preferentially and elude most problems with it. Still something direct like "reclaim all the shards of power you sent out among those mortals" would be too direct to evade.';

'>>92640633
>the spark of exaltation is not actually a soul
It is.

>It's not made of soulstuff
Actually, it is.

>it doesn't transition to Lethe or the Underworld
Neither do po, that's not a meaningful identifier of souls.

>it doesn't make ghosts of any variety
The next incarnation gets possessed by the Exalted soul of their last incarnation, which includes a bunch of memories, feelings, etc. Construing this as a ghostly possession by a rogue soul, as Immaculate scripture does, is not inaccurate. Further, have picrel describing it in omniscient third person narration as a reincarnated soul, 1e core pg. 107.

>You can't make soulsteel out of exaltations
That's because they're indestructible rather than because they're not souls.';

'>>92640681
The Incarnae aren't gods, and even gods can struggle against orders from their superiors sufficiently to disobey an order that goes directly against their interests like that. They have to have been worried about something significantly more powerful, like the divine geas, or maybe some equivalent to command codes for an automaton being thrown at them or something like that.';

'>>92640719
>It is.
No it isn't. It's a fragment of divinity.
>Actually, it is.
No, it's made of refined godhood ejected by a god's divine core (vis-a-vis the Exigence in 3E). I SUPPOSE you could make the argument that gods are just big solid souls to begin with, but in that case, fine, then they're a programmed soul-fragment that sticks itself inside your original soul.
>The next incarnation gets possessed by the Exalted soul of their last incarnation, which includes a bunch of memories, feelings, etc. Construing this as a ghostly possession by a rogue soul, as Immaculate scripture does, is not inaccurate. Further, have picrel describing it in omniscient third person narration as a reincarnated soul, 1e core pg. 107.
Your image explicitly calls it a matter of debate, but that's in-universe. As a matter of lore, sparks are discrete from the normal souls. Yes, they carry memories that Lytek is supposed to scrub off (except for the extra dramatic and heroic ones to inspire future incarnations), but this is the very reason it gets called the third soul despite not being a true soul. They're a meta-soul, para-soul, whatever you want to call it, they're still not part of the regular system of life and death, and indeed, do not truly live or die.
>That's because they're indestructible rather than because they're not souls.
Souls made into soulsteel aren't destroyed. They certainly wish they were. It's a magical translation of substance. But replace that with immutable, whatever.


This is such a tiny point of semantics that I'm willing to drop it.';

'>>92640764
>The Incarnae aren't gods
you what
>and even gods can struggle against orders from their superiors sufficiently to disobey an order that goes directly against their interests like that
Keyword "struggle". The gods were taking no chance at all when it came to the divine rebellion, they made the Exaltation system as perfect as they could define it.';

'>>92640778
>No, it's made of refined godhood ejected by a god's divine core (vis-a-vis the Exigence in 3E).
3e retconed exaltations from souls to artifacts.';

'>>92640895
New thread.';

'>>92640641
>>92640681
I know 2E changed things, but gods beibg compelled to obey Primordials doesn't really make sense. Primordials could've just prevented any rebellion by ordering gods to not in any way plot against them, or if they for some reason didn't do that, they could've ordered gods to fight in their side against the Exalted. Or then they could've just told the Incarnae to kill themselves.';

'>>92640954
>Primordials could've just prevented any rebellion by ordering gods to not in any way plot against them
Primordials are REALLY REALLY REALLY FUCKING BAD at lateral and preemptive thinking. Theion could literally not even comprehend why anyone would not obey it as a matter of course.
They are infinitely powerful idiots. Incomprehensibly brilliant in their one cosmic principle, and completely braindead otherwise.
The only one who could have predicted this (The Lidless Eye That Sees, which degraded into the Yozi Sacheverell Who Knows the Shape of Things to Come) was the very first shot in the divine uprising.
>they could've ordered gods to fight in their side against the Exalted
Who's to say they didn't? Primordial War era Exalted could take on Incarnae. At least an Incarnae who is sandbagging.
>Or then they could've just told the Incarnae to kill themselves.
That would not stop the Exalted Host, who would now be infuriated at the loss of their beloved patrons.

And always remember: there's about a dozen ways the Primordials could've won the war, but they simply didn't because they could not or would not use all of their options and power if it would risk the Creation they loved or the Jade Pleasure Dome they slavered over.';

'>>92641148
The whole point of geas, and of humans not being geased, is that Primordials did foresee some beings potentially rising against them, but didn't view humans as a possible threat. That explanation doesn't work.';

'>>92641222
Okay, I will acknowledge that Autochthon had some foresight. He was also the architect of the revolution itself, however.';

'>>92638366
so you agree with me? good

the posts you're linking aren't me by the way, also the guy is saying there's restrictions, not that it's impossible either, so even if it was me you'd still be an idiot';

'>>92638606

Yup. It was clear that a good amount of the writers hated the promise of Exalted, and instead wanted a game like Vampire where the players were dancing to the tune of NPC Elders.';

'>>92640258

Holden probably wishes that the UCS could take away players' Exaltations, but that's not how the setting has ever worked.';

'>>92640303
it's not a gift in the first place';

'>>92639593
Solar Exalted literally have a Charm that forces other realms of existence to obey the rules of Creation, so they tend to shit on crossovers because Exalt's bring their home ground advantage with them.';

'>>92640303
>I've never seen an actual dev statement saying he would
Grabowski did, ages ago. Early 1e. Unfortunately it seems every dev ignored him and pulled the usual White Wolf crap with high level stuff.';

'>>92640366
>>92640415
Mechanically, Deathlords are bullshit because they have retarded mote pools and can use anything nearby like a free mote drink.

They also got further enfuckened by 2e's brainlet devs taking FAFL's 1e stats, the stated strongest Deathlord, and using them for Mask, the youngest and weakest Deathlord, raising the floor to the ceiling, and then raising the ceiling even higher.';

'>>92640641
>>92640954
>>92641148
>>92641222
There’s one charm in Infernals that notes the geas was limited to forcing the god to get back to their work doing their job IIRC, not full on “obey every order I give”';

'>>92641778
>so you agree with me?
Now that you've backtracked all the way to my original stance, yes

>the posts you're linking aren't me by the way,
Doubt.jpg
Why else would you be fighting this so hard?';

'>>92643817
>Now that you've backtracked all the way to my original stance, yes
adorable

>Why else would you be fighting this so hard?
because you kept being wrong until you finally corrected yourself in these last few posts';

'>>92643844
Nope, as I've stated multiple times, my stance, is, and always has been, that Teleportation is not impossible in Exalted when I jumped in here >>92627056
You made the claim, or are at the very least defending the claim here >>92630168 that "no one said it was impossible". No amount of denying it will change it when someone can just scroll up or check the archives';