'You can't fly in a dungeon. And large flying humanoids have bad maneuverability class';

'>>92630221
God, this idiotic conversation again. Immunities of any kind are bad, because they mean a quadratically increasing amount of extra work for the GM, who now has to design encounters around them for the rest of the campaign. Don't bother replying, anything you have to say is going to be retarded.';

'>>92630221
The people who have problems with fliers in TTRPGs are generally the same kinds who have problems with cavaliers, and (as you already covered) tiny characters.
They're also usually the kinds of people who aren't heading the group to run a game, but rather to subject them to their super special story, and unconventional adventurers usually get in the way of that.
In hilarious contrast to their fixation on narrative, these people are pretty much always incapable of creating a good story as well; their plot points are often riddled with holes and non sequiturs, their characters inconsistent (and protected), and the "lore" pumped out in a massive blob either resembling the generic sludge of modern media or manifesting a cheap imitation of beloved classics.

That's why I like to play games; I don't have to deal with any of that.';

'>>92630332
>Immunities of any kind are bad, because they mean a quadratically increasing amount of extra work for the GM
I take it your sentiment holds for things like "legendary actions" and "legendary resistances", because that would be real awkward if not.';

'>>92630221
"Okay, you go into the next room. You need to climb a-"
"No."
"...you need to find a way to cross a-"
"No."
"There are ominous marks on the floo-"
"No."

For anyone about to say 'other people in the party won't be able to fly'- yeah, and that's why the flier brings a rope.';

'>>92630373
I don't know what those are, but I'm going to guess you're retarded and have no point.';

'>>92630373
I have no idea what those entail. Is that a D&D thing? I don't use D&D.
Do you mean "this character has a blanket immunity to [damage type]" or something.';

'>>92630221
I want to fuck this owl';

'>>92630508
>>92630221
Give them a take-off/landing distance requirement like real life heavy birds and planes, and if you feel dickish then also design the vertical parts of the dungeon to be less open.

Put some extra obstacles to fliers, like territorial flocks of birds, traps, more ranged mobs.

lower to a bare minimum their carry weight as a requirement to fly, you want to have your crossbow with you in the air? too heavy.

design a spell that adds weight and add a cult of dickheads to the random table that is fond of using it to kill birds. because fuck birds.';

'>>92630221
How about design your dungeon to make use of the flying character's abilities, huh?';

'>>92630221
>People claim that flying races are "overpowered" because they can bypass obstacles, especially overland obstacles.
Correct.

>What about the rest of the party, you know the ones that are landbound?
They get no advantage to being landbound, as they still have to deal with terrain.

>The same is said about tiny races like fairies, well yeah they can pass through the bars on doors, so what about the rest of the party?
Tiny Races are also overpowered in this regard, though a lot of their overpoweredness in terms of getting into narrow spaces is offset by other weaknesses. However, I do not allow people to play anything beneath small size category because of things like fairies being able to climb though what should otherwise be a solid obstacle.

>It's funny how almost every strategy game to ever exist has some kind of flying unit, yet when it's a tabletop RPG it's suddenly a "problem".
Yes, because you are comparing unlike things and going "why is it a problem here but not here?!"';

'>>92632254
pure cope right here lol';

'>>92632254
>because of things like fairies being able to climb though what should otherwise be a solid obstacle.
Okay so how does the rest of the party get through?';

'>>92632254
>They get no advantage to being landbound, as they still have to deal with terrain.
Give them an advantage. Birds are poor walkers and the only good runners are flightless birds.';

'>>92630221
DMs don't like flying races because it requires they put some extra thought into an encounter instead of throwing Sponges at the players and a Race that makes the DM have to stop and think a little more is considered "Overpowered" in the DMs eyes';

'People claim that omnipotent races are "overpowered" because they can bypass obstacles, especially physical obstacles. What about the rest of the party, you know the ones that are mortal? The same is said about tiny races like fairies, well yeah they can pass through the bars on doors, so what about the rest of the party?

It's funny how almost every strategy game to ever exist has some kind of reality-warping unit, yet when it's a tabletop RPG it's suddenly a "problem".';

'>>92633422
>It's funny how almost every strategy game to ever exist has some kind of reality-warping unit,
Name three.';

'>>92633432
Jackie-chan';

'>>92632872
>Birds are poor walkers and the only good runners are flightless birds.
>what are roadrunners';

'>>92630221
If someone in the party can fly, the DM can never put a key to a door the party needs to open on a tall shelf as a serious obstacle, because the answer will always be to have the flier get it.';

'You can fly but:
>taking any damage in-flight means risk of plummeting
>hollow bones means less endurance and strength and allows only for lightest of armor (if you want to fly)
>maneuverability is severely limited, going up and down is fast but a swooping attack takes 4 rounds to repeat
>you can't use your regular arms properly when flying (ranged attacks and spells rolls at disadvantage)
>AoE spells require a roll for inaccuracy
>without open space and updrafts your in-flight period is limited
>below 30% health you got to make con checks to see if you can still fly
>it's really fucking loud for a medium sized creature to take flight
>taking damage means you can't fly until the next round
>can't fly when wet
>Every little motherfucker with a usable appendage will know the skill of throwing small objects at the bird will knock it down

Would still have many strong uses though.';

'>>92633844
>>taking damage means you can't fly until the next round
Start flight until the next round* (already flying is still just a roll check).';

'>>92630373
Actual DnDogshit brainrot on full display.';

'>>92630221
>people claim that flying races are "overpowered"
in bad systems where flying races are balanced badly and being one of these races has no downsides? yes, yes it is overpowered
why do 5etards pretend that being able to fucking fly actually barely makes a difference and it's just a skill issue if you aren't willing to completely remold the campaign around the one guy to whom vertical distance is a trivial matter';

'>>92634187
name some systems where flying races are balanced';

'"Overpowered" in DnD is nonsense, it's not a game you play to win or lose.';

'>>92634247
points-based ones (you could buy something equally strong with the points you spend on flight)';

'>>92634356
Overpowered is just used to mean "is untroubled by a standard encounter or the same thing that troubles their allies". It's not very fun if one player puts their hand up and says "oh, I use X and solve the problem for everyone else" 5 times a night. Cooperation can still be unbalanced and the experience made worse for it.';

'>>92634391
never heard of a system by that name';

'>>92634404
GURPS, HERO, M&M, Rifts (I think is points-based? I haven't played it in almost 10 years)';

'>>92634456
neither GURPS nor M&M are balanced nor even pretend to be, didn't play the other two

you're a retard';

'>>92634465
goalposts: moved';

'>>92634481
systems named: none';

'>>92634456
Rifts isn't point based (it is basically a 1e/2e D&D heartbreaker). The reason flying isn't an issue in Rifts is that pretty much everything is armed with ranged weapons or ranged magic.Flying is an advantage but not pseudo immunity to many opponents attacks.';

'>>92630221
>It's funny how almost every strategy game to ever exist has some kind of flying unit
A. That's not true, and B. Flying units are very commonly overpowered in strategy games!

nice thread OP you cock sucking fag';

'My games aren't about dungeons or loot, so flying isn't a significant advantage.';

'>>92630332
Flight doesn't grant immunity to anything.';

'>>92630332
Immunities aren't bad.';

'>>92630365
FPBP';

'>>92630508
Too bad you're not strong enough to carry anyone.';

'>>92630508
>it's windy';

'>>92633603
How many species of bird are there like the roadrunner? Did you know owls fall over to sleep because they can't crouch? Penguins can neither run nor fly because they specked into swimming. Every trait has its trade off's.';

'>>92630221
>What about the rest of the party, you know the ones that are landbound?

This is the actual reason people hate flying races but you already knew that and started a shit fit thread. Either the entire party becomes flying and the DM has to do extra work presenting challenges or the party constantly splits leading to tons of downtown for players in a game where there is typically already too much. Conversely, giving PCs infinite flight does nothing to improve the quality of the game.

Flying outside of limit use spells is shit game design and a sure sign the devs are dumbass autists and the player who wants to be the bird person is also a dumbass autist.';

'>>92634872
Flight isn't really a significant advantage against building-sized monsters with eye lasers and lightning breath that also generate flying creatures out of their scales. Maybe stop running bad games.';

'People rage about how overpowered it is in a white room.
Theoretically you have a power that can circumvent melee and obstacles.
In practice flyers get shut down just by being put inside and putting ranged enemies to target them, or hell putting flyers on the enemy side';

'>>92634919
Also Leaping, Ensnare, Teleport, Telekinesis, Constructs, Nullify etc can all be used to counter flying';

'>>92630373
>"players having blanket immunities is bad"
>WELL WHAT ABOUT [things players explicitly never get]';

'>>92634979
Immunities are good.';

'>>92634975
Even melee boys can mob flyers if they go first
Just give them a high initiative and have them grab onto the flyer';

'>>92635011
Why would the creature with flying start combat on the ground?';

'>>92635025
They are in a hallway, a room, surprised, trying to use stealth and got caught, the bad guys have the high ground and are suicidal enough to try and jump them';

'>>92635071
yeah the opponent voluntarily gave up an advantage for no reason lol';

'>>92630221
>they can pass through the bars on doors
wait, you don't put tiny PCs in birdcages instead of man-sized prison cells specifically so they don't slip out between the bars?
also, interesting you bring up flyers in strategy games, since a lot of the time flying rules there are a colossal headache or are otherwise rage-inducing, like 40k fliers turning any ground unit that isn't entirely dedicated to hunting them down into a BS 6 shitter (for comparison, dumb shitter guardsman who can't even tie their own shoes are BS 4, and orks who literally only hit because they shoot a billion times still get BS 5)';

'>>92634247
Dunno about races, but in the 40KRPGs, flying reduces your actions by half, fuel is typically limited and everyone has ranged weapons by default, making it much less overpowered while still being immensely useful in many situations.';

'>>92635212
>(for comparison, dumb shitter guardsman who can't even tie their own shoes are BS 4, and orks who literally only hit because they shoot a billion times still get BS 5)
Did they reverse what BS numbers mean for some reason?';

'>>92630221
Flying races (in the context of D&D and similar) are a pain in the ass. Either their ability does nothing (you're indoors, it's too windy, etc) or it does everything. The satisfying middle ground is much smaller than the other two categories. So, you either have to run a very narrow set of scenarios, deal with the flying character not being challenged a significant chunk of the time, or deal with the player bitching because they never get to use their flight.

This is because (low-level) D&D is not based around players being able to fly. Many lower-level monsters don't have access to ranged weapons or flight. It's less an issue in games that are built around the assumption that flight is always on the table. There are games that give shit like incorporeality as a starting option that are fine, because they work with it.

>>92635266
BS in 40k is the minimum number you need to roll (on a d6) to hit. A lower BS is thus better; a 2+ is better than a 4+.';

'>>92635266
Yes.';

'>>92635298
>BS in 40k is the minimum number you need to roll (on a d6) to hit. A lower BS is thus better; a 2+ is better than a 4+.
Yeah, that is the opposite of what ballistic skill used to be.

>>92635380
Thanks.';

'Personally I think the obsession with balance has caused more harm than good. WHY should the flier be balanced? Why should the ogre be ultimately just slightly stronger than the human? Why should the halfling be just as sturdy and barely hampered by wind or attack?';

'>>92635604
It’s because some people can’t counter whatever the players throw at them.
They have to follow the book or whatever they have in mind that they ignore what the players are capable of and just claim it’s overpowered.';

'>>92630221
Flying isn't overpowered.
>>92630332
You're a a bad DM if you think flying is OP. Try not plating d&d and using pre-designed dungeons.
>>92631679
Don't feed people who don't even mention a system. Flying isn't overpowered or underpowered without any form of system being established.
>>92632254
Things are relative, you're an idiot.
>>92633373
Yes, effort is the bane of humans.
>>92634247
not the argument you disingenuous faggot
>>92634356
There are rules, which can be optimized for the same result.
>>92635298
D&D was not in the OP and should not be the default.
This thread always has two camps the dip shits who mention no setting and fail to realize that is the single most important aspect of the question. Who then think giving your players flight is the equivalent of no rules play pretend where everyone is a robot with lazer vision and flame thrower breath.
The other group of generally confused people who recognize you make the difficulty. If the game is "hard" (subjective) or "easy" (also subjective) it's a you problem. You're the rules auditor and the system navigator. You can't handle flight because you're bad at what you are doing.
If you think generic flight is overpowered. Then you probably think not breathing is also over powered. Something I suggest you try.';

'>>92630373
The most retarded take on 4chan right now';

'>>92635710
>OP brings up a problem that only applies in D&D (yes your D&D clone is included)
>"hurr durr don't assume D&D"

Nigger, find me a single post, just one, saying flying races are overpowered in another system.
Hell, find me one that says flying at all is overpowered in M&M or GURPS or EotE or whatnot.';

'>>92635604
Because it's good for games to be balanced, retard.';

'>>92630221
I've never actually had this issue come up. On its surface the argument that it would make the game more of a pain for me to run makes sense, but on consideration I'm not 100% sure about that.
Ok cool you can fly. If you were in a situation where being a bird man was an extreme tactical advantage I don't see how any intelligent enemy isn't taking you out first. It doesn't solve everyone else having mobility issues, it just makes you the first target for spells and archers.';

'>>92636301
If its so balanced that every difference is minor to the point of insignificance, there's no reason to have anything but the bare minimum of what is needed in which case you don't need any races other than humans anyway because there's no real difference. And even if the differences balance out too much then it again makes it pointless because there are too many disadvantages put against what is supposedly overpowered to make it unattractive to use.';

'>>92630221
>People claim that flying races are "overpowered" because they can bypass obstacles, especially overland obstacles
This is the mindset of the D&Drone GM, who has only ever run D&D (yes including TSR) and doesn't know how to design encounters in a three dimensional plane or worldbuild properly (they just use shitty official settings). Flight isn't a problem.
>What about the rest of the party, you know the ones that are landbound?
Why would they complain unless again the GM is a retard who hasn't run anything other than D&D and doesn't know how to design encounters that require the whole party to work together?
>The same is said about tiny races like fairies, well yeah they can pass through the bars on doors, so what about the rest of the party?
Again, it's hardly an issue. It's a solution to a problem, and in a world where they exist there would be measures to stop this (i.e. shoving a fairy into a jar instead of a cell).
>It's funny how almost every strategy game to ever exist has some kind of flying unit, yet when it's a tabletop RPG it's suddenly a "problem".
It's literally only D&Drones who whine about it. Tons of other systems have flight as a cheap or even free option and it's never a problem.

So like most things this shitty board bitches about:
Have you tried not playing D&D?';

'>>92630332
>Immunities of any kind are bad, because they mean a quadratically increasing amount of extra work for the GM
No, they don't. It's as simple as using something they aren't immune to, and flying doesn't make you immune to being shot or attacked by flying mounts or creatures or being restricted by low ceilings etc. Furthermore, it allows for more creative puzzle design or for the party to have new ways to solve problems, which is a good thing.
>who now has to design encounters around them for the rest of the campaign
Or you can design a few encounters where it makes sense and just let them do their thing the rest of them. You retards think that being able to move vertically fucks everything when in reality it just enhances everything from exploration to combat because that verticality means everyone now has more options.
>Don't bother replying, anything you have to say is going to be retarded.
Not as retarded as the bullshit you're spewing, D&Drone.';

'>>92630508
>"Okay, you go into the next room. You need to climb a-"
They can ignore climbing, but the party cannot. This means that anything at the top of the climb is going to be dealt with them and them alone unless the rest of the party has a means to climb as fast as they fly. This means they're dealing with something meant for 3-5 PCs instead of 1 PC.
>"...you need to find a way to cross a-"
See above, they are now dealing with whatever's on the other side alone.
>"There are ominous marks on the floo-"
See above, means nothing for the non-fliers.
>and that's why the flier brings a rope.
"Your wings aren't strong enough to carry yourself, your own gear, and anyone else while flying", which is true, because flying creatures' wings are only so strong and meant to carry so much weight. It's why in D&D most flying races can't use medium or heavy armor while flying; their wings can't carry that much weight.

Alternatively, scale can be a factor; the character might be too large to fit through where they need to go, or their size makes them a huge target for hostile forces with ranged options, or there are other flying creatures that will attack them mid-flight, there's plenty of ways to approach this but you're stuck thinking two-dimensionally.';

'>>92632254
>Yes, because you are comparing unlike things and going "why is it a problem here but not here?!"
False, TTRPGs are tactical strategy games.';

'>>92636614
Nope, differences can be significant and balanced.';

'>>92634872
Anon, it's not "extra work". At the end of the day, all party members need to get from point A to point B.';

'>>92637586
>It's not extra work to not have to work around one party member that's literally immune to 70% of the bestiary.
It's not as big a problem in the later levels but early game there's borderline nothing monsters can do if one guy decides to just hover ominously 30 feet above their heads.';

'>>92630221
>People claim that flying races are "overpowered"
No they don't. Those that claim things like that are not people.

>>92630332
>Immunities of any kind are bad
No they're not. I'm sorry you're bad at games and fantasy settings.
>GAY 4VD
Yes, captcha, he indeed is gay for venereal disease.';

'>>92637734
You use monsters from the book? Why?';

'>>92637734
Random encounters I rolled for level 1 for 5e. Each enemy highlighted in red has either a ranged attack that can hit a flying player or can fly themselves. It's not as big a problem as you think it is.';

'>>92637734
And how is that any different from the ranger staying 100 feet away with a bow?';

'>>92630332
>Waaaah, I have to put in effort, and can't just force my players through my railroad of slop!
>You're retarded for making me have to think for even a moment!!!';

'If your "puzzle" or "adventure" hinges on something as fucking tedious as figuring out how to climb a steep surface or not stepping on pressure plates, you're a shit gamemaster with no creativity.';

'>>92637734
bro's never seen a crossbow kek';

'>>92630221
>Races that are strong enough to tear a door off their hinges aren't inherently OP
>Races that are genetically capable of telepathy aren't inherently OP
>Races that can shapeshift into animals aren't inherently OP
>Wings? Get the fuck outta here you powergamer!!';

'Oh no, he's flying
Guess I'll go inside lol';

'>>92637974
This, in fact flight lets you make even more interesting puzzles that require everyone in the party to play their part - you know, like a cooperative game should.';

'>>92638101
What part will a character without flying play in a puzzle that requires flying?';

'>>92638121
Anon, you need to go play Lemmings.';

'>>92638143
No, you need to answer the question. Now.';

'>>92638152
The puzzle is set up so there are things that only certain party members can do, so they need to properly distribute their unique skills in order to do it. It's not that it requires flying, but a flyer.';

'>>92638175
lol you're so desperate, you don't have a single actual example in mind';

'>>92630221
>What about the rest of the party, you know the ones that are landbound?
Firstly, nothing stops the rest of the party from also choosing flying options. Secondly, rope exists.
>The same is said about tiny races like fairies, well yeah they can pass through the bars on doors, so what about the rest of the party?
Doors tend to only be locked from one side. A tiny character can easily just unlock the door for everyone else. Or simply serve as a scout.

>It's funny how almost every strategy game to ever exist has some kind of flying unit
A lot of strategy games will have flying units that cost more points or resources than ground units with similar durability. And many of them also have guns as the default weaponry, rather than being a world full of swords and monsters that rely on fangs and claws.';

'>>92638367
You're not going to carry around the rest of the party on a rope.';

'>>92638389
Where did I say that you would? You fly across and tie off the rope.';

'I've never had a scene where a party needs to cross a ravine using a rope. Is it such an important arrow in anyone's quiver that flying pcs ruin the game?';

'>>92638420
oh my bad I forgot the whole party is professional tightrope walkers. fuckin retard lol';

'>>92638501
>”Damn it Jim, I’m a adventurer not a tightrope walker”';

'>>92638501
>>92638518
>Ok wizard, just go hand over hand for 200ft along this rope over a windy ravine
>I'm helping
Sounds like a moderately funny webcomic';

'>>92638501
There are other ways to cross a rope. Doubly so if we're talking climbing. I don't often ask this, but have you tried playing D&D?
>>92638566
Could always climb down a rope to the bottom and climb up a rope on the other side.
The fact that the wizard would have trouble crossing a wide gap or climbing a cliff is a constant regardless unless he can fly himself. But having a flying character makes actually crossing that ravine feasible, as opposed to having to take a massive detour around it.';

'>>92638610
>But having a flying character makes actually crossing that ravine feasible, as opposed to having to take a massive detour around it.
Yeah, it would offer an alternate solution: risk the skill checks or take a detour.
Still doesn't sound like it breaks the game maybe it is because I don't play a lot of d&d anymore and mostly play modern investigative horror type games, but I just don't know if a flying PC is such a big deal. I can't think of a lot of situations in gaming I've had where something would have just been resolved with no issue if one of the like 3-7 characters was airborne. Altered, sure, but every PC alters the situation. Being able to turn in to an inch long spider would probably be pretty handy in an investigation game. Hovering above the ground not so much.
D&D obstacles are usually violence, puzzles, traps, and environmental hazards, right? Those are the main categories. I don't know if a guy being above the ground is going to consistently trivialise even one of those categories.';

'I've never had problems with PCs who could effectively fly.
A well made street sam just fucking teleports around in shadowrun, effectively. And gecko everything exists. And mages.

I am not sure why D&D fags have so -many- problems. Is it that big a deal if the flying guy bypasses the river or whatever? That's like getting upset the katana man bypassed the guards by using the katana to immediately kill them.';

'>>92638699
>am not sure why D&D fags have so -many- problems. Is it that big a deal if the flying guy bypasses the river or whatever? That's like getting upset the katana man bypassed the guards by using the katana to immediately kill them.
I don't quite know myself but I think it is because dnd players operate under the assumption that resolving a situation should be the result of either a skill check or the use of a resource.';

'>>92638716
It's FINE if the guy who went out of his way to be good at a thing is good at that thing. You don't need to put a big ass fan to blow him out of the air in every building, sometimes they're just allowed to do the cool jump or kill 1d6 guards a round or whatever.';

'>>92638660
>I just don't know if a flying PC is such a big deal
Another way to put it would be that the other sources of flight within the Player's Handbook in 5e would be
>a spell available to some 5th level characters that lasts 10 minutes and ends if you take too much damage
>a feature of a level 14 Sorcerer that allows them infinite flight

>D&D obstacles are usually violence, puzzles, traps, and environmental hazards, right? Those are the main categories. I don't know if a guy being above the ground is going to consistently trivialise even one of those categories.
I wouldn't classify it as consistently trivializing an entire category, but rather trivializing portions of each.
Some traps are triggered by pressure plates, or are just pitfall traps. Does flight bypass every trap? No. Does it bypass several common types? Yes.
Some enemies only have melee options, such as animals or animal-like monsters. Others only have relatively short-range options that a flying character can get out of reach of, or otherwise have worse ranged attacks than melee attacks, like a Knight who makes two swings with a greatsword or one mediocre shot with a crossbow.
Environmental hazards like cliffs and ravines were touched on. Flight and tying off a rope might not solve everything, but it can solve several.

To a certain extent, I've personally changed my tune on it. I think a lot of people see it as a bigger deal than it is specifically because the core rules imply that it's a big deal, by having it restricted to rare or temporary methods at higher levels. I do think it'd be better if it was clearer about weight allowances, and more interesting if it had other restrictions, but I'm not sure if overpowered is the word I'd use anymore.
It's something that can certainly be accounted for, but it's also something that can far more easily unravel a session for a more average DM if it's not accounted for. I can understand how people think it is overpowered for that reason.';

'>>92636798
>No, they don't. It's as simple as using something they aren't immune to
You are so fucking ungodly retarded. Pin your eyelids back, you stupid motherfucker, and read what I'm fucking writing. The list of things the players aren't immune to shrinks with every new motherfucking immunity, increasing not only the amount of time and effort you have to spend on encounters, but also the artificiality of the campaign as everything the players meet just happens to be on the shrinking list of things that can actually affect them. You stupid bastard. Stop opening your fucking mouth before your brain falls out of it.';

'>>92638716
from my perspective, its not flying is too powerful, its that having it as a racial bonus is too powerful.
a dwarf gets a con bonus and a poisons save or whatever, a human gets a free feat, permanent flying? would you let someone take that as a feat, because if you wouldnt then theres the answer as to whether its too powerful. its not that its inherently too powerful, but that you are not sacrificing anything near as strong as it to get it';

'>>92638734
>Does flight bypass every trap? No. Does it bypass several common types? Yes.
Yeah, for that character. It doesn't solve the issue for everyone else in the way that a thief disarming it does. That's my point, really. A flying character might themselves be less vulnerable to certain issues but that isn't solving the problem for other characters.
Yeah I think the weird thing about winged character flight in dnd is how unrestricted it is. Like an albatross is too heavy to just take off without a run up. A dude with wings attached definitely could "realistically" fly inside a structure smaller than a cathedral and even that might be a challenge for him, but the rules don't really touch on that stuff, leaving it to DMs to either just have like 4 meters of wingspan just act like an anti gravity device or to house rule it.
A wizard can make someone else fly. A flying humanoid probably shouldn't be able to carry a fully grown human while flying but I don't think the rules say otherwise.
But it's not like flying solves puzzles. Have you ever read an old adventure? I feel like every single judge's guild adventure had a fucking poem riddle in it. Flying isn't helping there. It might help in some combats but it won't help in others.
The issue is that dnd players want you to have earned something instead of just having it.
*translator's note: 'earned' means got by levelling up.';

'>>92638878
>A flying humanoid probably shouldn't be able to carry a fully grown human while flying but I don't think the rules say otherwise.
Yeah, that's the part of the rules where I wish it was more strict. RAW you could pretty easily have even an average strength Aarakocra carry a Halfling, and a high strength one could probably manage a typical human, but a 20 pound breastplate is just too much, apparently.
>The issue is that dnd players want you to have earned something instead of just having it.
Well, the game is sort of built around that fact. You go on adventures, find cool magical items, and gain levels which give you new abilities. That's just what the game is.
The bonuses of being a certain race are often more minor or niche. Therefore getting something that the game implies is very strong by gating it to high levels or rare magic items for 'free' so early would obviously ruffle some feathers.

I think a better way to look at it is that a lot of abilities in D&D are powerful, but they're not always equally flashy. I've seen some inexperienced players who think Sneak Attack is overpowered, even though in terms of average damage it's nothing special. But rolling a bunch of dice all at once and saying one big number is flashy, so it stands out compared to somebody attacking multiple times for smaller amounts.
Likewise, a Dwarf who gets extra health or proficiency in armor alongside resisting poison would have a better time surviving against a lot of fairly common enemies and traps, but that's not as flashy as the flying character who is actively forcing enemies to switch weapons or change tactics. Therefore, players remember that time that flight trivialized something more easily than the times where other racial traits trivialized something.

Which is all a very roundabout way of saying that a lot of it is overblown due to how player's perceive it. Flight is strong, but seems stronger than it is, which is why people see it as being too much.';

'>>92638121
The puzzle doesn't just require flying, retard. It requires the whole party to do something all at the same time in entirely different places in the room.';

'>>92638875
A free feat is thousands of times more powerful than flight.';

'>>92638610
fucking dumbass lmao';

'>>92640753
so no examples then';

'>>92640772
there are almost no good feats in the game retard';

'>>92638875
pretty much.
normally in D&D, you fly by casting Flight, a 3rd-level spell (meaning you have to be lvl 5 or so to even potentially access it) that is notably not permanent.
from there it should be pretty obvious why a lvl 1 character with permanent access to flying is a problem, especially given that one of the stronger things you can normally get by picking a race is the free feat a human gets.';

'>>92643721
it's not a problem';

'>>92644498
do you have any reasons to back that up, or are you retarded?';

'>>92644523
see
>>92638699
or really, just the entire thread.';

'>>92644523
bro never heard of a crossbow';

'So in your guys' games is every encounter just like, a fucking bear or something? Christ I can't imagine how this could ever be an issue in a real game';

'>>92632204
I got one, the party enters a massive cavern, they can't see the floor. Upon investigation, there are markings that look like vultures in the tunnel/hallway leading this way, other passages do not have the same markings.
The flier character if they go anywhere near the edge can feel air currents from below, they imply a very long drop if the flier is smart enough to figure that out.
If the flier enters the cavern, they might fly 'by instinct' and get very high, fly in a straight line forward, maneuvering around the cavern walls etc, their choice and species makes a difference
From a certain vantage point up and a certain amount of ambiant light from torches etc, the entire cavern is visible with photoreactive plants absorbing the torchlight and creating shadow heavy pockets of luminescence.
The flier may fly in a straight line for a little bit, but the peculiar and uniform air current is abruptly gone and the stagnant interior cannot support their war against gravity, heavy birds may plummet and light birds may glide to safety.
If the flier chose correctly to circle, they will make it safely to the other side from either direction, or they may encounter life in the crevices and adits of the cavern wall, if they are strong they can fly the entire way without stops, if they are weak they must land and will encounter something lurking in the dark, drawn to the new light in the caverns
...';

'>>92644661
I should also mention, footbound characters cannot safely cross, there is a bridge that must be activated from the other side, but low wis/int will break the mechanism and force the group to make a rope bridge with the materials abandoned on the party side.
Party can possibly get through the cavern if they take a long time to spelunk, but a flier would be an ideal companion here.';

'>>92644661
why'd they enter the cavern?';

'>>92630332
Lazy fag.';

'>>92644718
The longer you sit in the dark. The more ot will fill to the brim before bursting upon you. Take care take care. Do not light a fire. Do not light a fire. Do not light a fire. It will see. You will see if you light the fire.';

'>>92638822
Damn look at this little bitch moan.';

'>>92644737
Your dungeons aren't just an endless number of underground castles all built the same right anon?
You never have any natural formations to explore?';

'>>92644819
why don't you have an answer?';

'>>92644737
>>92644973
How would you feel if you missed breakfast this morning?';

'why does this owlman have dreads

0/10 immersion ruined';

'>>92644973
I will take pity on you and rotate the cow on your behalf.

The party enters the caverns because the long way back out to safety is even more treacherous after riling up the locals.
It will be several weeks before they're going to settle down and the power vacuum from the boss you fought calms, but your food will run out before then.
After encountering those risks already, there's meaning in moving forward to the unknown. Your successes have given you the confidence to see this giant cavern as a bountiful field, and moving towards the gasp of fresh air you've been detecting gives you a sense of fulfillment and purpose.

You know that after this cavern there will be something wonderful, a crystalline catecomb, a labyrinthine expanse full of geological and mythological riches to plunder. If only you can locate the turtle that is said to glow, you might find the key fortold in legends that will allow passage to visit the sphinx, but it's also said only those chosen by the sphinx will encounter his gatekeeper. How you have purported yourself since entering his domain several days ago will determine how and if he has selected you for this blessing.';

'>>92633373
Its an escalation thing. But now the GM has to pay attention to roofs, ceilings, flight checks, add in range attacks, status effects, and now the party has to deal too.';

'>>92630508
Unless you're a hummingbird or a ghost or a beholder, I don't think I will let you hover in place. For that matter, There's a good chance I will require some actual effort to go airborne. Verisimilitude, and that effort will increase with creature size. But if you're under 20lbs with all your gear, then yeah, it's probably pretty easy to get airborne.

>inb4 muh RAW.
Don't care. Verisimilitude > RAW was agreed to in session 0, or you wouldn't be here to bypass shit by flying.

That said, I am fine with including (typically homebrewed) fliers, or flying creatures. 3e Style, where we start from the enemy stat block and derive playable modifiers from there.';

'>>92644819
why don't you have an answer?';

'>>92645793
what do you mean, way out? why are they there to begin with?';

'>>92646121
Maybe the crystals are your point of interest, maybe the many threats inspire your fighter spirit, maybe as a caster the lure is the stories you've heard about the sphinx and it's wealth of knowledge. Maybe you just need to cross to the other continent though, many travelers from darker walks of life can't afford the high cost for surface travel, maybe the governor taxes all the available routes so badly that people have no choice but to take routes only sherpas can guide you through, or maybe as a hunted being the dark recesses are where you are safest, and you're luring the rest of the party to visit your home... many reasons for entering the caverns, but many people share the same reason they must leave it and never return.';

'>>92646268
so in other words, you can't make us enter the cavern. gg';

'>>92646268
There was a guy in the tavern outside the dungeon that swears by the turtle soup you could make out of the gatekeeper, either he was lying to you, or he was a real badass you should have hired as a sherpa, you erred on the side of caution to which he chuckled and replied "suit yourself"

If it was my tengu in party he'd be after that soup, the shineys in the crystal catecombs with a primary objective of poorfag travel, he's still a fledgling without real world experience.';

'jesus you're cringe';

'>>92646478
You could go overland and travel like a noble... but do you have high cha and money? No? Ok maybe you can get hired as a worker to a real person.
Maybe you can try the routes through the untamed wilds, but the locals there really... really hate humanoids.
Is your party ready to cause a war? If not... Probably don't fuck with the shroommen.

Now, you don't have to go to the other continent now, you can stay in the starter region but if you don't leave then the world will keep turning without you, the borders will close, and the war with the shroommen will commence in full, will you die like a dog or fight?';

'>>92646585
I don't need to travel like a noble. I don't need to go to the other continent. I don't need to go in the cave. You can't make me engage with your shitty novel.';

'>>92646645
Who are you quoting?';

'>>92646653
I didn't quote anyone, retard.';

'>>92646585
What are you talking about?
It’s not that hard to say the party needs to go into a cave for a quest.
Your spending a lot of brain power on a contrarian';

'>>92646701
I'm just off the dome adlibing a world that doesn't exist to some dopamine fried asshole complaining to a swedish soupgargling caucus, don't mind me anon
I'm doing it because this level of imaginative effort is just candy or like, cheap practice and distraction from something I'm taking really seriously';

'>>92646671
Who are you quoting?';

'retard';

'>>92630263
>You can't fly in a dungeon.

Show me a GM who doesn't like tall ceilings and cathedral like architecture in their dungeons and I will show you a liar.';

'>>92630263
I can fly anywhere.';

'>>92630221

Its inarguably an advantage still its hella sweet. Playing furry rpgs at the least has you aware of the dangers that go with being a flier:
>Crash damage.
>Cross winds
>Air thermals
>Air pockets
>Low visibility and obstacles
>Goblins who can aim upward
>Superior flying predators.

Typically I say that the faster you go the more dangerous obstacles are. The faster and higher means more damage if you crash. Also if you are a flier then you are in the backyard of all the other fliers.

Really, only That Guys complain about fliers because they are hooked on simplistic systems that don't support flying.';

'>>92638186
You are retarded.
A button on the floor and a button on the ceiling(30ft up) both must be pushed at the same time. A flyer is the easiest solution but many exist.
inb4 why would this exist.
15-20' tall giant that hates stunties and needed a lock';

'>Implement thing half assed.
>Wonder why its shit.
Just take a peek at what makes flying physically possible and how creatures evolved around that kind of mobility look like and you are golden.
Yes you can overcome objects on the ground easily and move with way higher speed over long distances.
But you also are hollow boned and your weigth is maybe a third of the usual bound to earth party member. Any excess weight besides your own body is a serious strain to the point of being almost unable to fly if you ate too much, if you get hit once with a maul or something like that you are probably a mess of shattered bones and still if you are just as big as a halfling your wings already span ~2-3m easily. Also your feet are shit and you have no knees. You walk slow as fuck and in the woods someone probably has to carry your ass so you can keep up with the group.
Thats a mighty trade off for being able to fly.';

'>>92630221
Nigger flying and diminutive character exist since fucking tunnels & trolls wtf are you talking about, a gm may remove them for the same reason he removes other characters options: to focus on a specific theme/scope for his game. You're so up your ass you're effectively a ouroboros at this point.';

'>>92646645
What if your party wants to explore the cave? Do you just cross your arms and pout outside?';

'>>92630221
No you cannot play a bird person. No you cannot play a faire. You can cry about it. You can call me a bad GM. You can find another game';

'>>92634401
Is that why spellcasters suck then';

'...so no mention of tracking cube movements and hassle of making 3D maps?
Ok, then.';

'>>92638822
>but also the artificiality of the campaign as everything the players meet just happens to be on the shrinking list of things that can actually affect them
Why the absolute fuck do you think that the players should never benefit from their immunities? Unless the whole-ass party has blanket immunity to X, there's no reason why you can't throw out X every once in a while and have one of the PCs have an easy time of things.';

'>>92637734
Just use bows/slings/crossbows/throwing spears? It's not exactly a lot of work to toss a ranged weapon on a sheet even if you're straight copying creatures from the monster manual.

Maybe let the flying one benefit from the first encounter having nobody who can reach them. After that the enemies wise up and start shooting the fucker.';

'>>92633844
>>you can't use your regular arms properly when flying (ranged attacks and spells rolls at disadvantage)
This should only apply to creatures whose arms double as wings, but not to the ones who have a separate set of wings sprouting from their backs (like angels, fairies or winged demons) or alternate means of propulsion.';

'>>92630365
>>92637784
Thread should have ended there.';

'>>92649097
>No, you cannot play a fairy.
Shit GM. Fairies are a core race in my game.';

'>>92630221
Honestly when I got into my current a system a veteran DM basically bashed my head in with how broken and unfair flight is as a racial feature. Then I had players who wanted to play one of those races even if denied flight and I decided it'd be a shitheel move to keep him gimped if he ain't picking the race just for flight's sake.

Flight was an advantage, but literally never a problem.';

'>>92649585
Hardly.';

'>>92634401
Nothing's stopping the other players from choosing real options. I'm not going to sandbag to make you feel better about your poor decisions.';

'>>92634500
Four named, actually. You lose.';

'>>92649404
>using maps';

'>>92649663
The shittier your system and the shittier your encounter design, the more likely flight is to be a gamebreaker.

If the best you can do for adventure design is a river crossing followed by a big melee sack-of-HP, then a terrain immune ranged kiter is literally unstoppable. Naturally, the way to handle this is to not design better encounters, ban flight, and then go complain on 4chan about it.';

'Does any other race have an ability that gives them the equivalent of a level 3 spell but it lasts forever for free with no other draw backs?';

'20th level caster with enlarge spell maximum range : 960 feet

catapult maximum range : 1500 feet

heavy ballista maximum range : 1200 feet

not really seeing the issue';

'>>92651066
who cares?';

'>>92651095
Based I should start at level 20';

'>>92630221
Strategy games are tiny artificial boxes of abstract rules detached from reality. Look at real modern warfare - when you remove those abstract limitations and framings, then suddenly air units become the most OP shit imaginable.

Flight is OP - it's not a feature of systems, it's a fundamental fact of the world. If flight isn't a problem in your game, then either

A) You are going out of your way to impose arbitrary restrictions on it, and railroad your players into playing a clean 'strategy game' rather than a roleplaying game, or

B) Your players are retards with no shred of creativity. And this is by far the most common explanation for 'flight is not a problem in my games' stories.

Flight should be a huge milestone in party power progression, not a freebie';

'Any world with flight magic and flying monsters would develop technology and and tactics in tandem with them. It's not like they all just appeared yesterday. Most population centers would feature hardened underground bunkers, or would just be protected by massive domes, or both. Defensive siege engine technology would primarily focus on rotation speed, accuracy, and rate of fire, as opposed to long range bombardment - though not exclusively, as conventional warfare wouldn't stop existing, especially if these counters are effective enough that air assaults are not a dominant strategy.';

'>>92651131
Who are you quoting?';

'>>92651138
Flight is only unbalanced if the party are the only ones with access to it, or if no effective counterplay exists.';

'>>92651167
You';

'>>92651180
Nope.';

'>>92651138
It is not OP and I disagree with your reasonings why it is.
You keep flying how it normally is without any restrictions and it wouldn't be a problem
I would say the real problem is brain dead GMs';

'Flying is balanced last post :)';

'>>92651174
Of course you can design adventure around it, and it's part of the fun - that adventures involving flight feel different.

The problem isn't the gap between players and NPC's - the problem is the capability gap between player parties with and without flight. You need to design challenges differently for them, and it becomes an issue when those two parties are supposed to be on the same 'level' of power.

>>92651218
Brain dead GMs and brain dead players in equal measure. Flight feels opressive when it's used smartly - by either side - and that's how it should be. If flight is 'no big deal' in your games, that means it probably isn't being utilized properly.

It goes not just for adventure, but even more for worldbuilding. An army with access to many flying mounts would use very different strategies from the one without. Similarly, existence of unrealistically efficient transport airships would completely change the economical and logistical picture of the world.';

'>>92651370
>You need to design challenges differently for them, and it becomes an issue when those two parties are supposed to be on the same 'level' of power.
Don't you do this with all parties? No two parties are the same, so changing encounters aren't exactly a minus to parties with flyers
The only way I can see flight being oppressive is if you have a ranged damage dealer that flys up to their max range, shoots, then move out of the range so no one can retaliate.
The problem for that is its not like you do it instantly. Flight is overpowered in these white room situations where flyers have every possible advantage before the fight begins.
Although I am curious on what your ideas of flight being utilized properly are.';

'>>92651421
It's not about individual combat encounters (those are fine), it's about whole challenge framing.

Take for example a scenario of needing to escape besieged city/castle. Without flight, I bet you can imagine quite a large bunch of interesting and risky ways this can play out on the ground.
But once flight is in play, it's becomes just safe easy 'wait for the night and fly away'. Of course, you can come up with arbitrary restriction against that - overwhelming number of 24/7 sentries with perfect night vision on flying mounts. But then you just established that easy mass nightvision is a thing - knocking into stealth design, as well as widely available flying mounts - knocking into pursuit design. Plus, all the effects on worldbuilding from anti-flight fixes - and that's just from unoriginal completely obvious usage.

Now for the smarter use of flight. Take a scenario where the party has royally pissed of a dragon, and now it's out to get them. Dragon is for sure a big bag of hitpoints, defenses and damage - but that's not even half of what makes it scary.
What makes it scary, is that bastard can come and go whenever he choose, wherever he chooses - watching and planning your downfall with impunity, his lair far far away. You constantly keep your guard up for 5 days, 10 days - but on the 11th one, you have a small slip - and then when the bastard drops down on you and fucks you up. You miraculously turn the tide of battle in your favour... For the dragon to just fuck off for a while. Even in victory, you didn't achieve anything beside surviving.

Dragon can even be significantly weaker than party as a whole. No problem, he will just snatch away or destroy party foodstuffs at opportune moment. And now you forced to split apart and scavenge, leaving you vulnerable to be picked off individually. Or he can piss of local apex wildlife, not even needing to fight you directly.';

'>>92651745
(cont)

The party can't fight that challenge directly - they either need to engage in deception while preparing some clever trap, or endure the harassment while trying to track down the dragon lair. Access to flight opens up a giant bag of bullshit you can now do safely to make someone's continued existence quite untenable, with no easy counter. The fact that is well represented in all militaries of the world.';

'>>92651753
I think your forgetting that Dragons usually have an impressive fly speed compared to the PC's 30.
I'm sure you can recapture that feeling with a high level monk hunting the party down.
>>92651745
>But once flight is in play, it's becomes just safe easy 'wait for the night and fly away'. Of course, you can come up with arbitrary restriction against that - overwhelming number of 24/7 sentries with perfect night vision on flying mounts.
How would sentries be arbitrary? Races with dark vision already exist, On mass with most settings.
Even in your example you would need a player charter to wait half a day just to get the chance to do that.
Let's assume the best case scenario for this siege for the flyer.
It's a human army of northern raider bunch of Viking stereotypes, so melee focused and no dark vision.
The players know that there will still at least be some archers so they decide to wait half a day on top of a barricade tower.
As soon as night falls the party leaves just by flying away.
This scenario then becomes a wave defense as the players fight of bunch of barbarians in their makeshift base.
The problem you seem to have is that you think you need something very specific to counter them, but all you need are just some ranged units';

'>>92651947
Humanoid dark vision is limited to 60 feet (120 in rare cases). It's useless for air surveillance - you can't shoot what you can't see.

And no, flash monk cannot recapture the feeling
of finding yourself facing Mi-24 Hinds day in and day out without sufficient air defense.';

'>>92652156
Take a scenario where the party has royally pissed of a monk, and now it's out to get them. A high level monk is for sure a big bag of hitpoints, defenses and damage - but that's not even half of what makes it scary.
What makes it scary, is that bastard can come and go whenever he choose, wherever he chooses - watching and planning your downfall with impunity, his monastery far far away. You constantly keep your guard up for 5 days, 10 days - but on the 11th one, you have a small slip - and then when the bastard drops down on you and fucks you up. You miraculously turn the tide of battle in your favour... For the Monk to just fuck off for a while. Even in victory, you didn't achieve anything beside surviving.
The party can't fight that challenge directly - they either need to engage in deception while preparing some clever trap, or endure the harassment while trying to track down the monk's monastery. Access to high speeds opens up a giant bag of bullshit you can now do safely to make someone's continued existence quite untenable, with no easy counter. The fact that is well represented in all militaries of the world.';

'>>92647992
bro never heard of a padlock lol';

'>>92630221
The core issue with flying races is that in some games it's above the power budget of what a racial feature should give. The obvious example is, if there was a level 1 feat or talent or whatever that could give anyone who wanted it permanent flight, would that be too strong?
In a game like Mutants and Masterminds flight isn't overpowered, since it's only the equivalent of like a 1 or 2 power point feature. In something like WoD it's powerful narratively but the game doesn't even use a battle map and inter-party balance has never been a concern since the game's more about narrative, the same way you can just play as a vampire of an older generation and it makes you significantly stronger than being a thinblooded fuck or a ghoul.

In 5e, which is what you disingenuous faggots are always talking about when you make this argument (and you're even posting an owlin) flying is too good to give as a level 1 class feature and makes the game even more of a joke. It benefits what are already the best and strongest builds in the entire game (control full casters and sharpshooter archers), and makes melee party members feel even more useless. Any """downside""" to having permanent 24/7 concentration free flight can simply be avoided by landing and playing as usual, and the supposed "risk" of falling out of the air is almost entirely negated by simply flying only 10-15 in the air against 90% of the monsters in the game. You don't NEED to be a hundred feet up, you only need to be out of range of most enemies melee attacks, which is five to ten feet almost all the time. Even enemies with ranged attacks are often lower accuracy with them or lack multiple attacks compared to their melee profile.

Flying is inherently problematic as a class feature, there's plenty of subclasses that give some way to fly, but it's too good for a racial feature when the alternatives are "you're good at identifying stonework".';

'>>92651066
Maybe the real balance issue is that flying is a level 3 spell.';

'>>92630221
flying races arent overpowered because they can be easily made not flying with a bit of damage. then you get a clumsy land walker with bad armor';

'>have extra tall impassable terrain (a flier can fly over a house, but not a skyscraper)
>can't fly over impassable terrain when indoors)
>the immunity fliers have to land terrain applies to helpful terrain too.
>terrain that only effects fliers
>anti-air weaponry
There's plenty you can do to balance fliers. Just make sure you don't do it too often and don't be too spiteful with it, otherwise it defeats the point of a player wanting flight in the first place.';

'>>92649050
keep crying lol';

'>>92649097
nope, I'm playing whatever I want and kicking you out of your own house.';

'flying is balanced last post :)';

'>>92655857
flying is FUN laster post :D';

'>>92630221
it's less about bypassing obstacles and more about being outright immune to enemies that only use melee attacks and can't fly
>be level 1 aaracockra with a bow
>fight wurm with CR somewhere around 15
>solo it with ease (albeit over a long period of time) because it's incapable of attacking you';

'>>92656429
>it's less about bypassing obstacles and more about being outright immune to enemies that only use melee attacks and can't fly
Then just play a system where that's not the case?';

'>>92656601
He's so mad to be wrong he has literally made this thread a shrine to his ignorance';

'>>92656429
That’s what makes it overpowered in a white room
In reality nothing is going to stop the dm from just parking the enemies under a roof.
You can say the same with any ranged charter.
>be me lvl one fighter
>walk 595 feet away from an Wurm
> solo it with ease (albeit over a long period of time) because it's incapable of attacking you';

'>>92654493
It was a genuine question. What do you do if your party wants to enter the cavern?';

'>>92656762
damn it's a good thing enemies can't move huh';

'>>92656429
>wurm burrows underground';

'>>92657019
More importantly, did you like the cavern?';

'>>92656429
This is retarded. How is the worm able to get at you if flying supposedly makes you immune to being gotten at?';

'>>92660733
Flying makes you a target to different things, not immune to anything really.
It actually kinda sucks and holds you back if you play with a serious DM that makes the hollow bones a physical detriment and takes advantage of your awkward ground movements to bully you.
Don't get me started on nets.';

'>>92656429
>>92660733
>>92661559
>Flight doesn't make you immune to melee.
>Flight just lets you bypass terrain
>have like a specific weapon do extra damage to it
Flying is balanced when you don't think about realistically!';

'>flying character smugly shooting a giant fucking worm from above
>worm burrows down
>one round of pause
>the worm burrows up
and that's with an unthinking opponent.';

'>>92647715
I take the crawl in dungeon crawl literally.
corridors have 10ft ceilings, rooms are barely taller.

not because of flying races, but because of the crushing feeling small spaces give. and because you never know when roofs are crushing traps';

'>>92666039
This is what happened to me once

I wasn't "flying" but I was playing a Twlight Cleric which allowed me to go walking around in the sky.
Got ate up by the Worm because the Worm beat my AC after the DM made me get rid of the armor that came with being a Twlight Cleric';

'>>92647715
Oh I like those. I also like vietnam rat tunnels where the two-handed fighter has to use the greatsword like a spear. Gods help him if he has a battleaxe or a warhammer. He'll need the help even more if I'm running the dungeon as the home of the inhabitants, and they've rigged drowning traps in those tunnels.';

'>>92665415
That’s like saying swimming is OP because it allows you to avoid the seabed. I don’t think you’re in any position to be the arbiter of realism.';

'>>92666372
If 90% of the game takes place on the seabed. Then creatures bound can hit swimming creatures normally. Swimming will still have its perks, but it won't be an auto-win in most matchups.';

'>>92630221
>so what about the rest of the party?

What about them? They are going to be fliers too. If there is such an obviously beneficial option, every player will always take it no matter what.';

'>>92666372
>That’s like saying swimming is OP because it allows you to avoid the seabed.

You might have a point if people played water based games. They fucking don't.';

'>>92666914
And then every enemy also takes flier!';

'>Flyers are SOOO overpowered guys, there is NOTHING you can do against them!';

'>>92666469
In regard to terrain, not reach.
>>92666924
They don’t played air based games either, so what’s your fucking point';

'>>92667223
Then what are you moping about? I said flying is balanced in regard to having it just effect terrain.';

'>>92630221

This feels like a stupid argument and post. There is nothing unbalanced or overpowered about it innatly. It all comes down to the game/the person running the game. If the game is set up that flying bypasses most problems and most players can't fly - this is bad. If the DM has set it up that the flying person can just do shit nobody else can, they are foolish for allowing you to fly/for setting things up that everyone else feels annoyed by this.';

'>>92665415
Accurate!
Real life is too scary';

'>>92668001
What the fudge is that?';

'>>92630221
>>92630332
shout out Canopus';

'>>92630221
This has always been a non-issue.
The only known game that provides flight as a racial feature without heavy downsides is d&d, and in d&d and its clones any non-combat is trivialized by having magic, and only 3 of the 12 classes dont have magic.

In other words, this will never be a real issue, because once your spellcasters hit lvl 5 the non-combat part of the game is dead already';

'>>92631679
This. Also consider their wingspan.
Shoebill storks are a good example. Their wings are huge and they need a running start to take off.';

'>>92633844
>>92649540
Alternatively, birds can't use their "arms" on the ground, because they're using them as feet. Or they can only use items one-handed and take some kind of penalty to their balance while standing on one foot.

>>92633536';

'>>92674242
>Also consider their wingspan
I hate how I immediately thought of the board game.';

'>>92668210
Australian moth';

'>>92636836
It's incredible how even D&D has this problem "solved" right within its own ruleset, but the "have you tried not playing D&D" fags don't actually know anything about the game so they just screech and shit themselves when threads like these pop up, treating it as both the default (which they rail against) while also just flat out being wrong about its ruleset and what it permits.

Hell, you even left out the lifting and carrying limits rules which are SPECIFICALLY to prevent bullshit like being the party taxi, alongside the maneuverability rules which demand certain amounts of space to fly in. You'd genuinely need to build your character with an eye toward being the party pack mule to do all that shit, which then presents a substantial opportunity cost, meaning you're worrying about this mundane stuff that equipment and skill points can handle instead of being useful elsewhere.';

'>>92679498
You are right, flying is not a big deal, thats why its a cantrip and not a lvl3 spell like fireball or invisibility.';