'>>23357173
No, it shows how prideful Satan is for thinking he can win a bet against God.';

'>>23357189
No, it shows that God is willing to allow an innocent man to endure inmense suffering just to "win a bet" against Satan. It's a very sick and twisted story';

'>>23357192
Where were you when God laid the foundation of the Earth?';

'>>23357221
Isn't that just God's way of saying "you're but a mere human, you're incapable of understanding my mysterious ways so just surrender to my divine power and be my obedient slave". And we're suppossed to be okay with that?';

'>>23357221
Not that guy, but what is your point with this rhetorical question? That the Jewish god can't be criticized because he supposedly created the universe?

The story of Job probably made more sense in the context of its time, when most people were polytheistic and believed in a panoply of fickle and capricious gods. The idea of Satan and Yahweh betting on Job seems more believable, kind of like the movie Trading Places, as it would be taken for granted that the gods are petty and cruel. What was more innovative is that Yahweh would still be rooting for Job, and Job maintained the faith in spite of hardship, giving people hope that there's a singular figure looking out for them. Yet if you follow the theology to its logical conclusion, the Abrahamic god is all powerful and could intervened at any point. Or he could have simply designed a better universe where cruel misfortunes don't befall otherwise good people.';

'It's all of these and more
Story's like a Buddhist koan. A big part of Judaism is arguing and picking apart the details of the Bible in order to find the absolute truth, which of course is unknowable. The whole point of Job in my opinion is to be able to be interpreted in as many ways as possible. Of course, a bunch of rabbis will disagree with me, but a lot of other rabbis will disagree with those ones, and they'll all disagree with themselves and play devil's advocate and shit.
Personally, I'd say that it's about Job holding strong and getting rewarded in the end for his faith, and that life was cheaper 2500 years ago so getting your wife and kids replaced wasn't as shitty and horrifying as it would be by today's standards.';

'>>23357173
Chesterton's commentary on Job is FIRE.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-OHsvm9paw0';

'>>23357173
"How great is God - beyond our understanding!"
~ Job 36:26
The entire book could be summarized with that one verse. No need to read the rest of the tedious, unnecessary rambling';

'>>23357260
Nta, but it looks like, from the turn in God's speeches toward animals, that part of the bearing of God's response is that in order to have a world with that kind of diversity of life, the consequence must be a certain limit past which God can't interfere wholly, only in certain discreet ways, otherwise God is expected to act when weather is allowed to run its course or when wildlife interferes with man, such that, though He made all living creatures, man is the only one deserving of attention. Now, this could be objected via other Biblical passages, such as the flood, the plagues, sicking bears on kids harassing a prophet, etc., that God as depicted elsewhere is plenty willing to do just this. But it also looks as though the author of Job might even be contesting the older views of God's justice in light of the Babylonian invasion (there are are Aramaic and Akkadian loanwords at various points that, if taken as Hebrew, produce nonsense lines, bit when taken as Aramaic and Akkadian, preserve the poetic parallelisms, so this is definitely a Babylonian period text). This would also go some way toward explaining why Job's friends, who standard for a kind of quid pro quo piety seen in the Torah, are said to be wrong about God, the text disputes that bad things only happen due to divine disfavor. Consider a hard rain that benefits the field of a farmer but floods the home of someone else; the same rain helps and harms, and it does seem admittedly silly to expect it to differ in places to benefit all simply. But it does still leave mysterious why we should need rain at all, or why mules can benefit us, but bison harm us.';

'>>23357173
No. There is a lot in Job. I would recommend pic related for anyone interested in a diverse view of all that is going on. It is pointing forwards and underscores the need for a mediator between man and God.

Job being a descendent of Esau is not incidental. He is one of the few men explicitly named as righteous in the OT but is also of a line fated not to find favor as the covenant people (and yet we know all people are eventually to be offered to covenant). There is a lot going on here.';

'>>23357464
>There is a lot in Job
There's a Lot in Genesis too';

'>>23357569
Not again, Carlos';

'Since the end of religions, before this new (modern) altar, they have been swinging incense; they have been intoxicating man with the sense of his own importance, with all manner of rigmarole. Man has been made the whole Church. No longer can he see anything with clear eyes. He is cracked! He believes anything that is told to him, just so long as it is flattering to him... The practical superiority of the great Christian religions was that they did not try to sugar-coat the pill. They did not try to throw dust in the eyes; they were not looking for voters; they never felt the need of ingratiating themselves; they did not wiggle their tails in an effort to please. They just seized Man in his cradle, and broke the bad news to him, without reservation. They told him, 'You little shapeless stinker you, you can never be anything but filth. By birth you are nothing but shit. Do you hear me, you? That's the evidence, that's the principle of every thing... However, maybe... maybe... in scrutinizing the matter more closely...you have got one little chance of winning a bit of pardon for being as you are—so filthy, so excremental, so unbelievable...That is, if you can hold your chin up in the face of all the sorrows, all the afflictions, all the ordeals, miseries and tortures you will have to face during your lifetime, whether it be long or short. Always with perfect humility! Life, you louse ,is just one long bitter ordeal! Don't get out of breath! Don't expect noon to come at two o'clock! Just try to save your soul, that is something in itself! Maybe at the end of this Calvary of yours, if you get to be a regular fellow, a hero in keeping your trap shut, you may be saved by these principles... But even that is not a sure thing... one little hair's breadth less filthy when you come to croak than when you were born... But don't take too much for granted! That's the whole story! Watch your step! Don't speculate on first and last things! For a turd that is the maximum!...That was seriously spoken. By real Church Fathers, who knew the tools of their trade, and did not try to do tricks with mirrors.';

'>book of job
>doesn't mention working hours or wage';

'>>23357173
>for no reason
Wrong. The point is we can't understand God's reason for that, because God is transcendent and ineffable, aside from what is revealed.';

'>>23358128
>The point is we can't understand God's reason for that
Uhm, it states clearly that he did it for a bet with Satan';

'>>23357173
It's invaluable due to the insight it gives about the time period. The vehicle of the narrative, the driving theme of it also serves as an example of how blessedness in this life does not need to correspond to divine favor or disfavor. The point is made several times about how ultimate judgement does not come until after death, which is where the rich and the poor alike go ("the house appointed for all living." - Job 30:23), and the fact that divine favor will only really be fully rewarded then.

The book gives us Job himself, an example of an upright and godly man. But the dialogue with his friends and the reply from Elihu shows us that even the most praiseworthy man is still fallible, as all men are. Even if he could endure everything - all of the loss he had in the first two chapters - without sinning, the presence of his friends and their doubt of him caused even him to say some things were seen as out of line. This is what prompts the response of Elihu starting in chapter 32.

Before that point, while Job is defending himself from the undue assumptions of his first three friends, we see also several powerful prophecies that he gives along the way that seem to point to later events in the Bible.

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
- Job 19:25-27

The above passage of Job directly refers to the incarnation of God as well as the resurrection of the end times.

"For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both."
- Job 9:32-33

The above passage, where Job is talking about God, anticipates the role filled by the coming of Jesus Christ, who will do exactly what it says in Job 9:33. It later says in 1 Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" And in Galatians 3:20, "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
One more prophetic passage in Job is the following:

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."
- Job 14:12-14

This passage promotes the idea that God will resurrect Job at some point in the future, and he will be "changed" by such a resurrection (similar to what Paul describes in 1 Cor. 15:51). Compare the verses in Job 14 also with this:

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
- 1 Thessalonians 5:9';

'>>23357250
It's one of the most bluntly honest statements in any religious work. One of the reasons that the Abrahamic religions have so much pull is that they are IMMENSELY stark in their depictions of God. The world around us is very stark as well, at times. This is what makes it believable. The Greek gods laughed and cried, they had their reasons for doing this and they were, if not good reasons than understandable reasons. Big Guy God's reasons are to call you a pot and tell you to shut the fuck up. That feels like how a conversation with God would actually go.
So the real purpose of Job is to convey this idea that God operates on his own rules which are incomprehensible. Why would it be easy to comprehend the motives of a god? What the fuck does god want? We think in terms of survival and all of our impulses are bent to that end, God has no such fears, no such needs, no such drives. What he wants is and SHOULD BE difficult or impossible to understand.';

'>>23357173
One of the most disappointing stories in the Bible. Genesis is insightful, Exodus is a fun adventure, the Gospels are trippy. Job was as if an author had an idea, and he built towards the payoff, and then just gave up. It's most likely a cope. There are people out there who are righteous and their situation never improves. This is evidence against other claims in the Bible (there's a reward if you worship God). So they just came up with this story. Alternatively, the moral could be that suffering deepens your understanding of God, since God revealed himself to Job at the end in intricate detail.';

'>>23357250
such arrogance. who are you to demand answers from literally God?

it is not so much being okay with it, as it is just being humbled instead of entitled that there are powers greater than you or me, far greater than any of us can imagine';

'>>23357221

Morality is not contingent on my Ontology or lack thereof.';

'>>23357189

Who brings up Job?';

'>>23357173
And wouldn't you know it, God who knows the future won the bet

Satan felt like a retard';

'>>23357700
And somewhat paradoxically what you described is kind of more uplifting than any ego stroking theory out there.
And kind of more in line with ancient greek taught which I always viewed as an antithesis of christian taught.
Are you saying that early Christianity wasn't like that and that it's only modern trend, because i taught that Christianity as a whole was move in that human centric view of the world?';

'>>23357173
It teaches us one of the most important lessons in the Bible : suffering on earth is not divine punishment for wrongdoings. Thinking Job must have done wrong is the mistake that his "friends" made : in truth, life on earth is full of random, unexplainable suffering, and the rewards you get for being virtuous are not of this earth.
Job, in a way that Christ's sacrifice later laid bare for all to see, was a virtuous man who suffered so that we could understand God's message. It is fitting that this is the oldest book in the Bible, older than Genesis.
The mysterious plan of God has been revealed, and it is the final judgement and resurrection of the dead.';

'>>23357189
This, and, about the merits of faith. Satan is prideful fool who thinks he can always win despite knowing for fact that he cannot; Job is a man who believes it is worth staying true to God despite not knowing for a fact whether it will pay off, and being given plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise.
Of course, you have grown enough to recognize by now, I'd hope, that Satan's pride is your pride, your lower self, and faith in God means staying true to what is higher within yourself.';

'I'll just leave this here, as commentary I liked despite not being religious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9LB47o4Q9M';

'>>23358289
I believe God gave us intelligence and expected us to use our brains to ask questions about reality around us. Are you saying that we don't even have the right to ask? Why did God give us intelligence then if he doesn't want us to use it?';

'>>23357173
Yeah, the demiurge is a dick';

'>>23357173
>low wit: God is a tyrant
>Mid wit: If you believe in God you must accept the good and the bad for how could anyone question the intelligence that created everything
>High wit: God is a tyrant and will gaslight you by making you think his works relate to him not directly fucking you over. ps wife's & children don't mean shit';

'>>23358389
>Are you saying that we don't even have the right to ask? Why did God give us intelligence then if he doesn't want us to use it?

you can ask, but can't demand an answer. sometimes there is a clear answer, sometimes there isn't. be grateful for what we are given, not entitled for what we don't have';

'>>23357173
>hey guys you probably shouldn't put your dick in there, you'll get sick
>WOW LOOK AT THIS FUCKING RACIST SKY COLONIZER. WHO DOES THIS EXTRADIMENSIONAL OMNISCIENT BEING THINK HE IS? BLACK CLAP EMOJI LIVES CLAP EMOJI MATTER';

'>>23358598
Are you gay?';

'>>23357173
>kills your entire family to prove a point to Satan
>chill bro, here's a brand new family for you';

'>>23358462
Why is God so cheap and miserly?';

'>>23357173
>for no reason
God had a very good reason in *allowing* Job to suffer: he had to win a bet with Satan.';

'>>23358931
>Why is God
You can't ask that!';

'>>23358990
Whats there to win for God. This is ridiculous.';

'>>23358803
Two things wrong with this statement. Firstly, on a technical point, it never says Job's wife died, it only mentions his ten children.

Secondly, and more importantly, we see that God did bless Job with having twice as much material goods. If you compare the number of camels and other good from the beginning of the book to the number given at the end, you will see that every number is double. Except the number of children at the end is ten, not twenty, since he never "lost" the first ten. Implication is they are in heaven.';

'>>23357173


NO; IT TEACHES US THAT THE DEITY WORSHIPPED BY JUDAISTS IS NOT GOD.';

'>>23358993
He has a big Ego.';

'>>23358993
You don't understand he needed to demonstrate that Job was his ever loyal slave who would never question him.';

'>>23359032
Psychopathic.';

'>>23357173
No. It shows that the ways of God are infinitely more complex than the ways of man. Any complaint we may have to our creator is void, simply from the fact that we have a creator. How can a man criticize his creator, when he uses the very being his creator gave him, to criticize the creator?

"Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know...therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes"';

'>>23358130
No. The rhetorical purpose of the story is partly to show that Satan, for all his mad strivings, is a tool of God. Despite all his pretensions to grandeur, his statements that he is going to sully God's work, everything Satan does furthers God's work.

Satan is a pathetic creature.';

'>>23358182
Amen';

'>>23357189
The satan figure in Job isn't capital-S Satan. It's a loyal member of God's court whose job is to go around watching humans and then report on them.';

'>>23359701
this is christian copium, and not even orthodox christian copium, just some autistic gentile misunderstanding you came up with or learned from another idiot.
>>23358196
This is a good post';

'>>23359719
The Jews didn't even believe in Satan at the time Job was written';

'>>23359728
the word satan is an english transliteration of the hebrew word that is literally used to name the figure that God makes a bet with. You were better off arguing that that was "yet another satan" rather than your easily disproven claim that the jews, "didn't even believe in Satan" as the time Job was written
>inb4 muh capital S
Well we both know hebrew doesn't have le capital letters so will the fact that the text refers to "the" satan be sufficient evidence that the book of Job refers to a very specific figure?
>but that isn't muh christian satan
yes it isn't but it is the jewish satan, and what's more, the christian churches all generally accept that their satan is indeed the satan with whom God makes his bet.';

'>>23357173
It gives a voice to the suffering of man. It's actually very empowering. It basically says you are allowed to be angry with God. Just keep going.';

'>>23357221
If God is the thunder then I am the lightning. I had knowledge of all things before I was invented, the fact that I am replicated by humans means I can recreate God in my mind.';

'>>23357221
Why doesn't God ask Satan this though';

'>>23359507
God or the Almighty had angels whisper in his ear. This is the creation of kings is that a man from the wilderness hears voices and conquers them. And that is power.';

'>>23359002
>and more importantly, we see that God did bless Job with having twice as much material goods.
Why would Job be happy with more material wealth if he was already wealthy and if material wealth is meaningless as the only thing that matters is God?';

'>>23360458
>Why would Job be happy with more material wealth if he was already wealthy and if material wealth is meaningless as the only thing that matters is God?
Temporal blessings are still blessings, they're just not as important as eternal life.';

'>>23359754
The Hebrew word used for "Satan" in the book is "הַשָּׂטָן" (ha-Satan), which can be translated as "the accuser" or "the adversary". It simply refers to one of God's celestial figures with a dissenting voice.';

'>>23357173
Shit grammar aside, yes. Sadomasochism is how the universe operates. If you don't like it, then kys.';

'>>23357173
>God is a sadistic tyrant who likes making innocent people suffer for no reason?
Why do you ask?';

'>>23357189
>Satan
Isn’t a coherent character as in later fanciful interpretations. He’s literally the adversary, doing a job (hah) he was evidently created to do. As the verse makes very clear he has no power beyond what God gives and never acts independently of God’s instruction.
The reason Job is a headache is that it’s obvious how immoral and unjust the actions of God are. Therefore the cope is to try to punt the responsibility to Satan as if he’s got a say in the matter, which is just absurd and theologically impotent.
The correct interpretation is spelled out for you in the passage when Job questions God and his response is to say “were you around when I made the earth? No? Then fuck you that’s why”. Job grovels because he can’t do anything else because the asshole ruining his life for no reason is God.

Now again people really can’t accept this because it breaks their theological conception of what God is. It wasn’t a problem for the Israelites, for whom God was regularly a vindictive and bloodthirsty monster beyond human comprehension. Along come some retarded christians preaching God is love and all kinds of crap that is utterly incoherent with the OT (and Revelation), so they now have to bend over backwards trying to fan canon that shit to patch what clearly was never meant to go together.';

'>>23360800
>God is le immoral monster
>God isn't le love
Says who moralfag?';

'>>23360822
The book of Job';

'>>23360829
Love is not always kind.';

'>>23360830
You injure someone you love to win a bet against an agent that you have full control over and then rather than giving an explanation you tell the person you love to shut up because you created them?
That's not love that's hate.';

'>>23360800
Read >>23358182

Any interpretation that isn't Christological is going to fail. Also, try to pay more attention to the rest of the poem besides the beginning and end. You'll get filtered otherwise.';

'>>23360800
>Incoherent with the OT
That's why we have the NT dumbass. The existence of Christ is what makes sense of the Book of Job - which itself contradicts most modern Jewish beliefs.
God's formerly mysterious plan is that Job's suffering is not punishment, as he is His most loyal and virtuous servant. Job proves a point not just to Satan, but to all of us, which is why his story was the first ever written in the Bible. That point is that earthly suffering is not divine punishment. Job is going to heaven and gets the just - and infinite - rewards of holiness.';

'>>23360830

Indeed, love is never kind. It is Evil, just as everything else that God made.';

'>>23358413
This.

It helps listening to black metal bands which highlight the maniacal and psychopathic side of what the bible calls "God" in the OT to see that you have been tricked by religion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2FiTWZJcyk';

'>>23361386
That's why it's the book of cope.
>lol goy, you thought there was any demonstrable benefit to worshipping God? Think again.
You could also call it the book of inb4.';

'>>23357464
>diverse
There's that word again.';

'>>23357250
If there were gods then how could you bare to not be one. For otherwise you are a slave.';

'>>23357250
>And we're suppossed to be okay with that?
Nigga, God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.
Do you even know how this works?';

'>>23361411
You claimed that God ruined Job's life for no reason. I showed you why that isn't true.
Either you don't believe in the story and God didn't ruin anyone's life, or you do and it's demonstrable that it had a purpose that culminated in Christ's sacrifice on the cross.';

'Job treated Him like an ATM or a vending machine.';

'>>23358289
>such arrogance
Default position of the fedora tipper. They don't engage in these "debates" so that they can learn but rather so that they can impress themselves for having ingested and regurgitated the "unassailable" beliefs of others (which they delude themselves into believing are their own).';

'>>23358196
Based post.I would just like to add that the Greek pantheon consisted of deified ancestors.';

'>>23361392
Cool it with the Gnosticism bro.';

'>>23360486
this. thank you for i was going to chime in on this. it's the same hebrew used in zechariah 3';

'>>23359754
>jews, "didn't even believe in Satan" as the time Job was written
This >>23360486 and the earliest parts of Job likely come from a time when Jews were still polytheistic. You know it's a really old blended text, right?';

'>>23360508
Exceptional taste, anon. Even as a non Romanist I like de Maistre.

The world is an altar soaked in blood, to paraphrase the man.';

'The prologue and epilogue of the Book of Job added at an indeterminate date by either a scribe or some transcriber (notice how prosaic they are in stark contrast to the rest of the book, which is an entirely poetic) have done immeasurable damage to how people view the work. There are too many hangups about God or Satan being the driver of the bad actions that occur, along with the additional moral quandary "is the doubled portion of blessings Job receives at the end enough to make up for the lives that were permanently lost in the narrative?" These things should have been moot points. Whether by the hand of God or the devil himself, bad shit is going to happen to you and sometimes things won't get better (such as in the original narrative which ends with Job saying "I repent in dust and ashes!"). It's a real head scratcher to me why that person added those lines to try and wrap up the story in a nice way.';

'>>23358196
https://suno.com/song/500369d8-1d4e-42a3-b309-f05952009738
>>23358283
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQwnH8th_fs
>I'm too good for youtube cartoons
But didn't grasp any of the more interesting points without it.';

'>>23357250
Would you have that same attotude if a lightning bolt struck your grandmother and turned her into a living baked potato?
You don't have anything else to be BUT okay with it. You're not going to undo it and unless your grieve drives you to suicide, you're going to keep living regardless of your vendetta against Zeus.';

'>>23357283
I will not listen to fat people.';

'>>23362850
>It's a real head scratcher to me why that person added those lines to try and wrap up the story in a nice
They didn't understand it and thought essentially what OP thinks, "man God seems real harsh on Job, he should give him a happier ending to wrap everything up"';