'>>92612865
>Are you looking forward to Velma S2?
no but I am looking forward to Discovery ending forever';

'gotta start that lewd Captain's Logs campaign I told myself I would. Recapture the vibe of roleplaying online in the noughts';

'Have you ever incorporated other media properties into your Star Trek games/stories? Aside from the Kzinti which don't count.';

'>>92618771

In my vague plans for a Adventures campaign (post-Dominion War re-exploration of the Alpha Quadrant frontier 'south' of Cardassian space by a mixed crew of pre-war/wartime-accelerated/post-war personnel aboard a freshly repaired and recommissioned vessel), the vessel would encounter a unstable wormhole. The session would start in media res as they deployed a probe through to determine what was on the other side. Once they start receiving telemetry, they discover that the wormhole aperture on the other side is microscopic (by can be prompted to open by objects passing through from their side, and the science officer would be able to speculate that they could manipulate it via subspace shenanigans. A side effect of this would be light and almost all other EM spectrum emissions are lensed around the wormhole, meaning the probe is near undetectable.
It is at this point the vessel would, via the probe, receive a badly garbled audio-only distress call; a vessel is under attack, their engines are failing and their shields can't hold out much longer. They also hear the vessel has a USS designation, but the interference is too great to discern the name before the signal is lost. The probe is able to detect the presence of four vessels in the immediate vicinity of the wormhole.
The crew has found a temporary link into the setting of The Orville; the vessel under attack is a Planetary Union 'Science' class, with the attackers being a mix of Krill and Moclan ships. If the crew intervene, they are able to chase away the marauding vessels, but then face a choice of whether to stay on that side of the wormhole to assist the crippled vessel, or risk towing it back through the wormhole to keep it safe from further attack.';

'>>92619224
2meta4me';

'>>92619307

I'm 'fotunate' that the group I'd likely run such a campaign for aren't too immersed in Sci-Fi in general or Trek in particular, so the odds on them 'knowing' that I've dropped them into another setting are pretty slim. The idea would be that the players would have to strike the balance between Prime Directive non-interference/not meddling, making contact with a like-minded exploring power and being willing to throw down to defend those in need.
Taking the ship back through the wormhole leads to a more engineering/science focused situation as the crew attempt to make repairs on very unfamiliar technology (as well as safely nursing the vessel through the wormhole), while remaining in place leads to a more tactical/diplomatic scenario as the vessel has to fend off approaches by the hostiles while repairs continue with reinforcements en route. Both forks would tend towards the same resolution with all ships back on 'their' side of the rapidly collapsing wormhole and with much to reflect upon.';

'>>92618771
Do the Cybermen count? I used them as a proto-Borg in a TOS-era game once where a planet that had a failing biosphere while at the same time easy access to energy from a solar phenomenon had gradually converted its populace to sustain itself on inorganic materials and pure power, only for the party ship to get stuck onto a decaying orbit in their world, dead in the water due to getting wedged between said phenomenon.

The main conflict was convincing the Cybers to help repair the starship as opposed to processing everyone into new Cybermen and making off with the tech for themselves; see, even though they were an interstellar civilization by virtue of sending a ton of sub-FTL ships stuffed with Cybermen who could weather eons' long voyages, they had never discovered Warp drive, and the Federation was their First Contact, and they had many questions to ask while the captain and away team explored their subterranean shell of a past civilization and culture they had since outgrown in the name of utilitarianism, which they of course espoused as a virtue to no end, generously offering no less than a dozen times to give the party free upgrades to show what they're missing out on to be rejected at each turn.

Eventually, the conflict boiled down to the Cybermen debating with the captain on why they should allow the ship to leave when it was a once-in-a-lifetime chance for them to achieve warp travel, and I think the way the party solved the issue was by leaving behind a diplomat they had picked up in a previous session who volunteered as effective ransom while promising to establish proper channels with the Federation that would see to them being eventually exchanging knowledge, as well as something having to do with dilithium being a perquisite component to warp drives they would need to trade for, behooving them to leave a diplomatic impression? It's been a while, so the exact points've gone fuzzy.

I don't think they ever checked up on that diplomat again.';

'>92612865
Really, going with a /tv spammer pic?
>>92613388
Asshole got banned from /trek/ more times than I can count (or be bothered to look up in an archive site).
This is a troll thread, do not bump it, let it die.';

'>>92616540
>gotta start that lewd Captain's Logs campaign I told myself I would. Recapture the vibe of roleplaying online in the noughts
Going against some sexy Borg?';

'>>92618771
I'm never going to run it, but I've been building a campaign loosely based on Macross Delta for years: pack of assholes find a way to influence people with a weird interaction of things from two separate worlds, and backed by a whole lot of ancient tech scattered throughout the cluster. I'm stuck for filler and side missions though.';

'>>92619429
We've made do with worse threads. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about who made it, but we've made do with worse threads. You just don't have to play OP's game and talk about what you'd like to. I'm sure he'll pop in now and then to try to start shit, but let him seethe as people ignore his shite topic and are just talking about trek 'n' games.';

'>>92613388
I've been rewatching Voyager recently and it occurs to me that the show paints a rather interesting picture of the future as something always in motion, always evolving, never set in stone. For instance in the episode where Voyager is split into different temporal zones we find that Icheb and Naomi are adults now running astrometrics while Janeway and Chakotay are long dead while Seven of Nine is alive. However in the series finale Janeway got her crew home, albeit after over a decade of hardship though Seven of Nine died. Of course Admiral Janeway altered that future. It's possible that Chakotay's knowledge of his death (not that he knew the specifics) changed the future with adult Icheb and Naomi, so perhaps it's only time travel that changes events. Not like time travel is rare in Star Trek, though, right?

My point is that from the perspective of the TOS and TNG eras it is highly probable that shortly after Discovery landed in the future that future was erased in favor of another, and Discovery was erased along with it. That's what I choose to believe, anyway. Time is always fucky in Star Trek. For instance Voyager met a restored Captain Braxton after he detected their ship was out of place. So why did none of the time agents respond to Admiral Janeway? She just initiated a major temporal incursion that resulted in punching the Borg in the dick so hard an entire unicomplex exploded. You'd think someone would have responded and shoved Voyager back in the Delta Quadrant. On that note, it would be amusing if time cops came to arrest Discovery for being out of its temporal neighborhood only to get arrested themselves because the future outlawed time travel. Past and future in conflict with the only sensible solution being Discovery sacrificing itself to end the problem. Good riddance.';

'>>92622807
Yeah I know. I was too harsh on Voyager it seems.';

'>>92623087
I don't know, Voyager was always pretty inconsistent. Sometimes they can't share technology because it's against Federation rules, sometimes they're happy to give shit away to people. It's very situational, though I'm 100% against giving replicators or transporters to the goddamn Kazon. Fuck those guys with their own ridiculous hair tufts.';

'>>92623592
Yeah there's still retarded shit but I prefer it to STD.';

'While we're talking about inconsistencies, one of my favorites was in the second Moriarty episode. Specifically in that episode the holodeck, as opposed to creating objects using photons and forcefields, instead is said to create simulated matter. They're even uncertain as to whether this simulated matter can survive off the holodeck if they can transport it. I'm perfectly fine, even approving, of the idea that holodecks are also oversized replicators which explains why it can create viable food and drink. It's weirder to imagine it's replicating semi-organic masses and fashioning them into characters, which is clearly what that episode is talking about. How else would they beam the Countess off the holdeck if her mind is actually still being processed by the holodeck? No, instead it creates a thinking, reasoning, semi-aware mass off proto-flesh. It's nuts!';

'>>92616540
Same, anon. I need my Science Officer to finally get laid by that cute Bolian Engineering officer.';

'>>92618771
Our Star Trek game is a crossover, a sort of extended epilogue for our 5e game where we often jumped between realms. Within the slice of the post romulan empire's neutral zone there was the set up for a race between various factions and worlds from romulan/federation space and beyond, and it was all being hosted by the subspace program 'Warped Factor', a top gear knock off. It was mostly an easy way to show the party where the ship they were hunting was at the time.';

'>>92623601
I think it falls under the "shift the balance of power" provisions of the Prime Directive. Obviously giving the Kazon technology would end horribly because they'd abuse the fuck out of it. On the other hand Janeway was okay giving holodeck tech to the Hirogen. This makes a bit more sense. For one, the Hirogen are actually more advanced than the Federation in several of their technologies (and significantly with their biology) but she also used the same clause that Kirk often relied on, which is that their culture is fragmented/dying. Holodecks weren't going to make them any deadlier than they already are, but it might allow them to stabilize their society from the brink of extinction and give them an outlet that would make them less of a threat to everyone else. It didn't quite work out that way, at least in one significant instance. Hell, in Prodigy the kids visit the Hirogen system and never run into the Hirogen. Those guys spread their hunts so wide they've abandoned their homeworld. There's some other significant tech sharing moments I can think of. There's the ocean in space where they shared some tech to help alleviate the damage they were doing to their oceans. Janeway also offered the Malon a means to recycle their waste so they'd stop dumping their pollution on people. I'm not sure if she ever actually gave them the tech, though. The first Malon they met turned it down since it would put him out of work, and the other major encounter was a broken down space hauler. It would be a good point to share tech with them again but I can't recall off the top of my head if they actually did.';

'>>92623674
>Going anywhere near Bolian plumbing
You'll get your dick melted off and theres no one to blame but yourself';

'>>92623769
It's fine, tholian silk condoms are a thing these days';

'>>92623980
Unfortunately Tholian silk contains lethal amounts of asbestos. Great gift, Sisko!';

'>>92624261
Anon, the asbestos ones are only meant for for humanoids with copper blood. Says so on the packages. You need to get the ones in the pink and yellow packages for all other species. Now if you excuse me, the holodeck awaits.';

'>>92624511
Well, that is good to know. I'll have to remind the gamemaster next session about this lore.';

'>>92623706
>>92623592

the one time the Kazon did get hold of a pcb to build a replicator around, they installed it on a ship and because of that decision avoided doing a nuclear holocaust on a planet, but still killed everyone on their giant-ass ship; I don't think there was a huge likelihood of them abusing it to create eg endless water (as they'd still have the power requirements to run it) but there was a huge likelihood of them obliterating every inhabitable world in their territory as they progressively installed new replicators throughout

>>92623636
I guess it's possible that they're using subatomic particles other than photons to simulate atoms, which would explain why it's possible to do some experiments on the holodeck without it just being a visual representation of a computer simulation, and would explain how the air changes its smell etc. without the need for a room-sized replicator; the particles would be constrained by forcefields but not actually creating matter the way a replicator does

I agree it's an unnecessary step, but also, if the Countess were being replicated to that degree... her mind could very well be said to be, and in practical terms might be, processed within her simulated brain

that raises some implications

>>92622807
the major problem with time travel is still the issue of free will

Trek gets around it by saying the future isn't fixed (like Terminator) but if it can still lead to those possible futures then any future you've visited (or which visits you) removes your free will in its entirety

for Discovery that means they were always going to go to their own future because once there, they looked back and saw that they had (and at least one of them went back to their past)

for Voyager it means everything from at least Braxton's perspective is fixed events (even in disparate timelines), meaning the Borg genocide can be justified from their perspective as "the thing that happened", which is still paradoxical, but what isn't';

'>>92627444
The 'free will' that you're talking about is an illusion, you need to look inward to sort it out. Freedom doesn't mean unpredictability.';

'>>92627444
>the major problem with time travel is still the issue of free will
The question of free will is, to me, somewhat moot. Sure I want it, but do I have it? Perhaps not 100%. We do make emotional reactions. We do make what we'd call instinctive reactions, spur of the moment, driven by our subconscious more than our conscious mind. I still think we can reason out actions, so to an extent yes free will exists.

The problem, ultimately, is that what we're going to do is what we're going to do, regardless of whether we have free will or not. It will be an action made in that moment with all the data I have in that moment. If I decide to have a banana with breakfast it doesn't matter if I used free will or not, I still decided, for whatever reason, to do it. Once done I can't change it. Similarly what I will do a week from now will be what I will do, regardless of the reason, and nothing I can do in the present will change it. There will be a series of actions and decisions between now and then, but each time I'll do what I'm going to do.

Take the example of Icheb and Naomi as adult Starfleet officers. Without the foreknowledge of his and Janeway's deaths Chakotay will still do everything he's going to do to lead up to his death. And that's the curious thing about it. It's not that the deaths are predetermined, it's that without any anomalous influence, say via timetravel, events will still proceed the same way. In this way it doesn't really matter if there's some kind of quantum effect where every future decision is undetermined until you get to that moment, make a choice, and collapse the probability waveform. If that makes sense.';

'>>92622807
I would actually pay to see a time war between the 32nd century and the 29th, because the 32nd century is full of absolute dogshit brained morons while the 29th century Starfleet time cops are fucking hardcore psychotic madlads. When every other form of time travel seems relatively safe to the traveler whether it's done using a slingshot around the sun, the bajoran orb of time, or a wacky alien snek cane, you have to be balls to the wall crazy to rely on a gimmicky temporal transporter that slowly but surely drives people insane. The 29th century time cops are also the ones who took a man who avoided having to live for thirty years as a hobo and temporally merged him with his insane hobo self! They took that same man who hadn't yet committed a crime when in the future he's driven mad by aforementioned temporal transporter (and having to deal with Janeway) and did they use their foreknowledge to get him treatment? No, they were going to cram the innocent man with his future guilty (but crazed) self - AND THEN PUT HIM ON TRIAL!

The winner or loser in such a conflict doesn't matter, it'd be entertaining as hell to watch. I want Daniels and his 31st century time agents stuck in the middle whining, "Can't we all just get along?"';

'>>92627492
if i do that, it's only because someone in my future already traveled back, establishing that the events which lead to their existence are fixed

everything i do from that moment on is done not because i have any freedom, but because the universe is fully structured, including my own thoughts, from that point out';

'>>92628743
In hindsight, all things are fixed. The 'free will" that you're talking about is an illusion. Talking to your future self increases your actual net freedom because you have more information to base your decisions on. Sure, a being with perfect knowledge would be able to predict your decisions before you made them, but that was always true and it has nothing to do with time travel.';

'>>92628779
>>92628743
This convo seems a bit of a circular, unlikely to get resolved here. Specific to Star Trek, I'm not certain how the timeline works for them beyond obviously it being up the writers. For instance in that Naomi/Icheb future were events always going to lead to it until Chakotay learned about future events, or was it actually still just a potential future? I mean that it is the determined future based on how events will play out based solely in the moment when the time fracture occurred. It's strange to say it, but it could just be a temporarily real possibility, but if that fracture had happened the day before or the day after then the determined future might have been entirely different. Kind of like the universe makes a best guess. Really no different from a functional standpoint than the future Q created in All Good Things, except rather than created by a sentient super being it's created by an anomalous temporal chicaneries.

Another problem is that time is relative. To the view of people in the TNG Era Discovery is in the future, and as we've seen the future is very mutable. But to Discovery they're in their new present, so everything else is the past, a very set-in-stone past. By existing at all they ensure what the far future of the Star Trek universe will be like.

But yeah it's ultimately up to the writers, which is why sometimes time travel makes an alternate cinematic universe but usually it doesn't.';

'>>92628850
There is only one potential future for any given linear timeline, that's what I'm saying, there has never been and will never be any reason to think otherwise. Some people think that you can't have "free will" unless your actions are theoretically unpredictable due to some metaphysical random-factor in your decision-making process, what I'm saying is that this concept of "free will" is an illusion. Any concept of "free will" which is not compatible with superior knowledge is an illusion.
I think it's useful to talk about a relative sort of free will. Free people have free will relative to each other, but we don't have free will with respect to creatures from the future, or relative to an omniscient god. O'brien has no free will relative to the aliens who scanned his brain in real time while running a compressed simulation designed to exploit his personal flaws. A dog has no free will relative to a child offering bacon, the dog might know that it's wrong but he can't stop himself, and the child knows this.
In Star Trek, we often encounter higher beings who tell us that we're totally predictable and ant-like, and we also often surprise those higher beings. This could imply the existence of the "metaphysical random-factor" that I was talking about earlier, as if human decisions don't follow basic determinism. Personally I think it implies that humans are low-key psychic. The time-travel plots, while inconsistent, seem to be based on linear deterministic logic as modified by time travel.
I've seen other shows (like Umbrella Academy or Loki) play with the idea that human decisions are quasi-random, so that history MOSTLY follows a specific script, but humans throughout history are (???) always going off-script and require time-police to correct them and maintain the proper timeline. These plots make no sense, because the premise makes no sense, human decisions are a rational process and would be predictable if you had perfect knowledge.';

'>>92628779
>Talking to your future self increases your actual net freedom because you have more information to base your decisions on.

They aren't your decisions. They never were. You have no free will because everything has already happened.

>>92628850
Multiple timelines complicates it but in effect the other anon has half-understood the concept of time travel. From the point of view of the present, there is no real future. But the classic time travel paradox is that if you go back into your own past, you do so not because you choose to, but because, being your own past, that is a thing which has already occurred, and all events leading up to that moment have also already occurred, because you from your own future has travelled into your past.

You can try to resolve that (you can't actually resolve it because it's a paradox), but your options are: the past you travel to isn't your own, but very similar and in effect a new universe (this requires multiversal branching to be true, which requires limitless energy to very specifically recreate the universe in all possible ways and certainly violates thermodynamics significantly, which is a lesser concern if you're already saying FTL is possible); or it requires that the past is your own past but you are able to make changes without altering yourself or your life enough to not be able to travel back in time (which would create a second order paradox reliant on the first paradox to exist). In the second case, you would arguably have free will as much as you do in any situation, but only you - from the point of view of your past self, the initial paradox remains no matter how much future you changes your past. As long as the future has already happened, everything now is just history.';

'>>92630784
>Hence why "Time Travel" is a headache and you're honestly better off not bothering.
>>92630784
Nice try Noye.';

'>>92629610
>There is only one potential future for any given linear timeline, that's what I'm saying
Not in Star Trek. If you want to argue the general philosophy this is probably not the thread for it';

'>>92630676
>which requires limitless energy to very specifically recreate the universe in all possible ways and certainly violates thermodynamics significantly, which is a lesser concern if you're already saying FTL is possible
I'm not entirely certain that is a deal when you have a multiverse since the laws of physics are specific to our universe. If you have a broader system in which different universes can exist we have no idea what physics might be at play in this theoretical higher dimensional plane. It's similar to simulation theory. One might say that the power requirements to simulate an entire universe would require a computer ... oh, let's just say an extra bigboy with monstrous power and cooling requirements, BUT that is defining the computer running the simulation by the rules within the simulation. Sure it might have the same rules, but you can't be guaranteed that. Whoever is running it might be playing with "what ifs" to see what happens. Of course we judge things by our own "standards", so to speak, because that's all we know exists and actually works.';

'>>92612865
>Thread Question:
>Are you looking forward to Velma S2?

No, I didn't watch the first season. Why would I do so for the second?

Hate-watching is unhealthy. Just don't do it.';

'>>92632873
This is why I haven't watched any STD after S1. But I still can't avoid being mad what they're doing to the Breen.';

'>>92632953
Same dude same';

'>>92632953
Soon as they said that dudes species was a mystery I knew it was gonna be something dumb.';

'>>92632953
Had to look that up. That is pretty damn bad but I guess it solves the mystery of why nobody has seen their face even when stealing their uniforms. They drip.';

'>>92632873
Same, it’s not even worth pirating.
A better TQ: your player character accidentally wins an indentured Hupyrian servant in a lottery who has sworn it’s undying servitude to you, what do you do?

>>92632953
Oh sweet merciful God what have they done to the Breen?';

'>>92635207
>what do you do?
This is /tg/, you know exactly what, "Indentured Hupyrian servant, wut do?" means.';

'>>92635207
>Oh sweet merciful God what have they done to the Breen?
They aren't as cool but they have drip.';

'>>92635322
Abandon all hope ye who enter...
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Breen#Physiology';

'>>92635322
I assumed no one would be game enough to lewd a wrinkly eight foot tall dude.

>>92635372
I think I’m going to be sick';

'>>92635372
I'm not going to speak on the execution because this is STD we're talking about, but this is a legitimately neat idea. Which honestly is the problem with STD, there's a lot of neat ideas buried under absolute dogshit execution and writing.';

'>>92635450
>I assumed no one would be game enough to lewd a wrinkly eight foot tall dude.
We've seen their sexy ladies.

>>92635484
It...has some potential merit. Sounds like they're on the cusp of evolving beyond being Solids, which would explain why they were interested in allying themselves with the Founders. I guess it also explains why nobody has seen what they look like if their face basically drips down the drain, so to speak, when you take their gear off. Still being liquid(ish) doesn't fit with them lacking blood. I mean they very well could, but you'd still see some kind of liquid and most people would probably assume they bleed.';

'>>92635372';

'>>92638237
I'm not too worried by what they look like. After all, we saw what the show's "klingons" looked like. My hope would be that future shows will ignore the look and find something more appropriate.

Still it is something that the new live action shit keeps trying to fuck with established species. The Klingons, the Gorn, the Changelings. Fucking mess, if you ask me.';

'>>92635372
>liquid form
>refrigerated suits
Ice cold drinks, alright.';

'>>92638368
>Fucking mess, if you ask me.
The only show not to really fuck with any established species really is Lower Decks and that's saying something.';

'>>92632953
>>92634239
>>92635372
Am I the only one here that's fine with this? The only mistake I think was actually showing the liquid face, that should have stayed a mystery

In general its kind of bittersweet that Discovery is ending on its best season. Fitting that its the show that came after Enterprise';

'>>92639660
I do enjoy that the Breen are so hardcore that they'll start shit with Starfleet and nearly destroy a Federation ship. Losing a war against you guys? Fuck that, let's go, bros.

>>92640957
>The only mistake I think was actually showing the liquid face, that should have stayed a mystery
I can't agree. When the mystery of the Breen was always what is under the mask finally showing them but then claiming there is yet another face mystery they're hiding is just ridiculous. It would have been better if they'd either been used as they classically were, as LD did, or not used at all.

>In general its kind of bittersweet that Discovery is ending on its best season.
Low bar, really, however to me it feels like with STP they're just trying to do as much pointless damage as they can to previous series on their way out.';

'>>92642369
This wasnt originally the final season though, so really anything that happens here was business as usual before the final episode. A lot of what they're doing here lines up with a last season though, seemingly by accident. I wonder if LD will feel the same way

>When the mystery of the Breen was always what is under the mask finally showing them but then claiming there is yet another face mystery they're hiding is just ridiculous
I get that, but if you're making them the current big enemy of the Federation I do understand wanting to expand them more. I do think it would have been better to choose between unmasking them and making them speak, doing both at once feels lame. Showing the one Breen and keeping the rest masked would have been better too.';

'>>92642649
>Showing the one Breen and keeping the rest masked would have been better too.
Perhaps. Especially if one could reason it away as him being surgically altered to appear as a different alien.';

'>>92630676
>They aren't your decisions. They never were. You have no free will because everything has already happened.
Anon, you're talking nonsense, "free will" is fuzzy-wuzzy and can mean anything you want it to but "decision" is a pretty straight-forward word and you can't just redefine it into nonexistence.
You're just trying to express a feeling. As an intelligent creature with limited knowledge and limited deductive power, one might consider many options at once and consider each of them to be equally possible, because from the decision-maker's perspective they are all equally possible. This is how decision-making works. Someone with superior knowledge might predict that decision, so from their position only one outcome is possible, but that doesn't change the nature of the decision in any way. It only changes your perspective as the viewer.
>But the classic time travel paradox is that if you go back into your own past, you do so not because you choose to, but because, being your own past, that is a thing which has already occurred, and all events leading up to that moment have also already occurred, because you from your own future has travelled into your past.
Star Trek isn't committed to that, in fact they rarely do it at all, each instance of time travel creates a new future which the time traveler isn't familiar with. Sometimes the time traveler returns to his native time and it's exactly the same, other times he returns to find an 'altered' timeline, which usually means that the time traveler has to go back and fix the mistake. It's all in constant flux and they've sort of embraced the fluxiness, with higher beings who perceive multiple timelines at once and yet still aren't infallible.
>>92631853
>Not in Star Trek
Yea. In Star Trek, if two possible timelines are shown as both being possible, there's going to be an explanation (something that happened in one version of the timeline, and didn't happen in the other, creating a branch).';

'>>92635372
this is one of the orville aliens';

'>>92645269
Me again, I should honestly ask, is there a point where a linear timeline splits into two potential futures, and the only difference is that a character made one decision in one timeline and then made a different decision in the other, with no time travel or other outside interference up ot that point? Like the plot was specifically written to show that decisions are non-deterministic? I've seen that in scifi but I don't think I've seen it in trek.';

'>>92640957
I admit, a lot of my prejudice is based on the simple fact that Discovery had no right to go there, they've already taken too many shits in the worldbuilding so they should be forced to make up their own new aliens or work with what they've already used, they don't get to unmask the breen. Kurtzman wants to wield the coolness of what came before but he doesn't respect it.

I don't think this season has been very good but it's hard to determine, for similar reasons, I've grown completely numb to all the action and danger and tension because it's so lazy and so predictable. The danger that they're worried about won't come to pass, even if they stop running and have an extended conversation in the middle of the danger, any negative consequences will pop up 'unexpectedly' (but will still be predictable based on simple dramatic convention).
The last season was like this in the beginning, but then the plot started happening and it got better, bad things seemed to be more of a consequence of character decisions and felt less contrived. Yea, you knew that Booker was going to keep getting away so he could be the rival, but it wasn't as bad as watching Lok and Moll escape over and over (or at least it didn't seem as bad at the time).';

'>>92645269
>if two possible timelines are shown as both being possible
Sometimes you get a spare O'Brien from one, just like random quantum duping can give them a replacement Noami and Kim.';

'>>92640957
I'm alright with it. I don't think there would ever be a completely satisfying unmasking of the species but, it's interesting enough to keep my curiosity for now.';

'>>92645499
This season has been a lot more episodic than most so the usual problems are less of an issue for me. The time travel episode for instance was just a really fun concept with no extra baggage. If the season finale sucks it'll still be a good episode

>prejudice is based on the simple fact that Discovery had no right to go there
>they don't get to unmask the breen
I can kind of agree with this. I feel like for instance, Lower Decks proved itself before it started doing big things like going to DS9 or making the Ferengi join the Federation, and stuck to less important aliens before then. Thing is, the Breen are arguably not on the same level as the heavy hitters either, even if unmasking them is still a big deal.

And I do think its worth pointing out that this current team isnt involved in seasons 1 and 2, I feel like we can at least not hold what happened back then against them and judge just on 3 and 4.';

'>>92645499
>>92647166
The smartest decision Roddenberry ever made was telling TNG writers to fuck the hell off trying to constantly retread characters and plots from TOS until after TNG had already established itself as being a worthy successor in its own right. STD should've done the same, but then lazily aping prior material is the only reason why it exists to begin with.';

'>>92647207
that's a problem with too much modern trek';

'>>92649901
The thing is I don't personally mind nostalgia at all, done properly. LD typically gets it right. The sudden inclusion of Sito as the source of Mariner's issues with Starfleet was a bit much, though I didn't mind how they used Locarno. Comparing how they utilized the Breen, LD had them true to how they were in DS9. Same look, same sound. Apparently they fixed their energy drain artillery to work against Starfleet again. Hell, about the only thing they got wrong, or at least a seeming contradiction, is we know the Breen do take captives since they captured Worf and Ezri, albeit as a gift for the Dominion.';

'>>92651686
I did love this moment in particular, even if it perhaps "humanized" their behavior a bit much for some people.';

'>>92651686
>>92651740
LD did Breen right - kept them weird, alien, and as a secondary threat.';

'I’ve been watching DS9 for the first time and I’ve finished the episode Crossfire, Jesus Christ never before has an episode of tv made me feel this bad, just 45 gut wrenching minutes of
>fuck you Odo get cucked (both romantically and professionally)
Why did they have to do this to the “he’s literally me” character?
Hopefully the next episode will not be as rough.
>first ten minutes and Dukat is demoted, disowned and his wife took the kids
Fuck';

'>>92655491
No one's suffering can compare to what O'Brien goes through in that show. Just you wait.';

'>>92655491
>first ten minutes and Dukat is demoted, disowned and his wife took the kids
>Fuck
Having finished the episode it was actually extremely kino, just Dukat flying his commerce raider with his waifu and his half caste bastard daughter hunting down Klingon fucking shits. This episode made me feel a lot more better.

>>92655788
Oh God please no, not O’Brien. Isn’t it enough that he’s chained to that Asian harpy? Why can’t O’Brien just run off with the Cardi scientist and live happily ever after?';

'>>92656053';

'>>92656096
That's a great example of a nostalgia overload, but somehow it worked (for me anyway) because it was meant to be an overload. Mariner kept doubting Starfleet and wanted to go half-cocked on some ill-advised mission to save her mom, but it turns out Starfleet indeed came through, had some ridiculous over the top action teamup worthy of a season bridging two-parter, all occurring off-screen, that saved the day, leaving the Lower Deckers going, "Holy shit!"';

'>>92656053
Dukat's family is something I'd love to have seen more done with, I think even the novels only ever had one of his sons show up for one page. Unfortunately the only show I'd trust to do handle it well is dead.';

'>>92651686
I do think Lower Decks "earned" being able to explicitly tie itself to TNG Lower Decks by that point so I dont mind.

>>92654887
Might be a hot take, the Emerald Chain was an interesting concept. The idea that the Andorians teamed up with the Orions and formed an enemy faction is at least different, and as the Federation slowly befriends all their enemies its good to get interesting. The Breen feels less interesting as a major faction. And the Emerald Chain seems to still exist, so I dont know why its just in the background now

>>92656193
Animated shows get to do this sometimes so Im glad they took the chance to throw in some people but not overdo it.';

'>>92656775
I'm not really upset they linked themselves to TNG's Lower Decks ep since it is what they derive from as a concept. I don't really like Mariner linked to Sito like that. The timeline of several characters backstories are so fucking fuzzy. For instance Mariner graduates just after Sito, but still has to be on DS9 and several other ships before the Cerritos, plus all her grey ops stuff, all while being the same age as Boimler. Rutherford, however, is a much bigger mess. We've seen that Buenamigo was just a much younger commander when Red Rutherford was blown up, but we're told in the first episode that Rutherford was only a recent cyborg (a couple of weeks before the first ep according to Boimler).

It's not like this breaks the timeline, but it definitely seems like way more has gone, especially with Rutherford. Maybe his old memories resurfaced at one point necessitating another mindwipe and a different implant to suppress it, I don't know.';

'>>92656775
>Animated shows get to do this sometimes
It's also the only way to really get these people back at the proper age since so much time has passed in reality. Tuvok definitely went downhill fast for a Vulcan for his STP appearance. De-aging is clearly more expensive than they want to do. I guess they could have tried makeup, but that's kind of hit or miss (often misses) and I wouldn't blame the actor for not wanting to go through that.';

'undefined';

'undefined';

'undefined';

'>>92657113
it's not really worth doing de-aging on a tv budget for 120 seconds of screen time

Tim Russ during filming of Picard would have been what 66? so about the same age that Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan were when they were de-aged for X-Men 3 in 2006; most of that wasn't actual CGI, just makeup and lighting and, basically, smearing the lens with vaseline

which is fine up to a point, but slow work and therefore expensive because everyone's waiting around for these two guys to get their takes, and the long shots have to be composites or very carefully angled or just lit/blocked spectacularly to hide what you're doing to a few people in the scene, otherwise you could end up "de-aging" everyone else

which for Picard would have been a problem at the end with Seven and Tuvok in the same room, when, again, it's only a few moments of time

it's not like TNG where they could bring in Scotty or Spock or Kirk at their "old" ages unchanged from their previous appearances, because so much time passed irl obviously, but it's not really a big deal

the obvious thing to do to get that effect would be to bring T'Pol into SNW, as you can age up Jolene Blalock with makeup and have her age into the role for the next however many decades; T'Pol would only be in her 160s, not much older than Nimoy-Spock in his final appearances';

'>>92663497
I mean these are the same people who claimed it would have been too expensive to show Shelby and Ro Laren survived even though they could have just had a moment where the main cast says, "We've just heard from Starfleet Medical and Shelby and Ro Laren are going to make full recoveries and are right now tribbing while planning their gay marriage, are we checking enough boxes yet, Paramount execs?" So yeah they didn't need to bring the actresses back for any filming, just tuck it into the stupid ending montage where Crusher uses her amazing new admiral powers to solve a problem she'd already solved several episodes earlier.';

'>>92657063
let's see

TNG Lower Decks was 2370, The First Duty was 2368 (months after Chakotay quit as an instructor, or I'm sure he would have made an appearance). Wesley was 20 that year and had been a cadet for one year - although he'd been a full ensign for a year before that. So assume for the moment that the other members of Nova Squadron were 19-20 as well, having attended at 18 or 19 to be in Wesley's classes. Mariner was in her first year in 2368 making her likely no more than 18 and thus a year or two younger than Nova Squadron.

the first episode of LD takes place in 2380, making Mariner 30; Boimler graduated from the academy the year before that in 2379 and is perhaps as young as 21 (or 23 if he took 5 years like Kirk); Rutherford was transferred to the Cerritos the same year, but when he graduated isn't clear, nor is his age; officially he was given his implant after joining Cerritos but this may or may not be true given the reasons he received the implant (and in any case is no worse than the Data using contractions thing in TNG S1)

it's possible that Boimler simply didn't go to the academy until later in his 20s, because if they are the same age then his graduation obviously happened much later than hers

Picard was transferred "dozens of times" prior to 2365, despite graduating 38 years earlier (for "dozens" to be true he would be transferring on average every 20 months or so on that basis) but spent 22 years as captain of the Stargazer, making "dozens" clear hyperbole unless he really was kicked off starships every 8 months

Riker graduated 2357, 7 months later was on the Pegasus, then Betazed, Potemkin (2361), Hood (2361-2364) then Enterprise, as first officer (also offered captain of the Drake 2364); compare those 7 years to Ramsay's probable 9 years to Captain of the Oakland and Mariner's 5 postings in 9 years don't seem far out there';

'>>92663749
yeah but that's 10 seconds of dialogue and honestly not necessary

nobody ever said alt-Yar survived her trip to the past until her daughter showed up, and now look: running the galaxy, in association with the reverse vampires, under the supervision of MK-ULTRA';

'>>92657063
>all while being the same age as Boimler
When was this stated? Even as early as the first episode it was clear Mariner was supposed to be the jaded cynical vet while Boimler was the fresh-out-of-the-Academy newbie. Like Tom and Harry, only with less terrorism.';

'>>92663797
Picard being transferred dozens of times has an easy handwave. We know that in the 9 years between the Stargazer and the Enterprise, he would sometimes be assigned to ships, for example during his first meeting with Tasha. If we assume in these cases he was deployed as some kind of special advisor, flitting around postings that never last more than a couple of months is plausible.';

'>>92663814
>yeah but that's 10 seconds of dialogue and honestly not necessary
Dude, if it's just 10 seconds of dialogue then by all means cut the idiotic scene of walking a changeling away at gunpoint as if those guys can't shapeshift lightning fast. While we're at it cut the idiotic scene of drug chick stabbing them to death as if they even have actual organs. Saves you having to do a ridiculous "sorry, not sorry" tour in interviews.

https://www.ign.com/articles/why-picards-story-had-to-end-this-way';

'>>92663859
Established early in the first season by Boimler.';

'>>92663797
>So assume for the moment that the other members of Nova Squadron were 19-20 as well, having attended at 18 or 19 to be in Wesley's classes
I prefer not to, since Wesley could have joined years earlier but lost the spot because he helped a dude who breathes his own farts. Sure Wes is a prodigy but I think people make the mistake of assuming that Starfleet Academy is basically college.';

'>>92663936
Those particular changelings couldn't shapeshift wicked fast, because they'd been altered to not be able to do that. And because they had actual organs.

You'd know that if you saw the show.';

'>>92664060
that's fair but doesn't change the dates established, and only really makes Mariner at most a couple of years younger';

'>>92664209
No, they could form internal anatomy that persisted after death. Anon, if they were stuck with a specific set of internal anatomy, i.e. basically devolved from a full shapeshifter, they could only pass for whatever species organs they approximate and would thus be easily detectable, now, wouldn't they? Rather defeating the purpose of the ultimate spy Section 31 was supposedly trying to create. For instance the Tuvok one would stand out because his blood chemistry would be all wrong, among other obvious inconsistencies.

I mean this isn't that hard.';

'>>92664214
We have no way of knowing that since we don't know how long she served on each vessel, or if the off the books gray ops stuff overlapped with any of those ship assignments. At least we know she was on DS9 long enough to make a lasting impression on Quark and Kira.';

'>>92664209
>You'd know that if you saw the show.
Which would be fair since they'd realize the modified changelings were completely unnecessary if they'd bothered to watch DS9. Changelings were already able to pass perfectly so even scanners couldn't identify them from the people or objects they were imitating, and had even come up with ways to defeat blood screening. In fact they lose their invulnerability to bladed attacks, their resistance to extreme environmental conditions including the vacuum of space (and thus their ability to turn into space dwelling lifeforms to travel space), their longevity, immunity against telepathy. All they acquire is constant agony and their imitated forms persist after death which is all well and good but their operative is still, you know, dead and the truth can still come out in a thorough enough autopsy. Oh, and since a rare radioactive compound was used to alter them they can now be tracked through scanners anyway if people know what to look for.

>>92664244
They indeed can shift their internal anatomy but also spread the changes made to them to other Changelings. Why they'd want such a stupid and pointless alteration I have no clue.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Changeling#Modified_Changelings';

'>>92664557
>and had even come up with ways to defeat blood screening
Better than that, they were the ones who introduced the whole idea of blood screening in the first place.';

'>>92663497
>the obvious thing to do to get that effect would be to bring T'Pol into SNW, as you can age up Jolene Blalock with makeup and have her age into the role for the next however many decades; T'Pol would only be in her 160s, not much older than Nimoy-Spock in his final appearances
Yes.

I also want them to do something mid-timeskip while Alan Ruck is still alive.';

'>>92663797
>Picard was transferred "dozens of times" prior to 2365,
lol, where is that from? Couldn't it refer to transfers between departments?';

'>>92663957
"like the same age" can mean a lot when the lifespan is now 190 or something. The difference between 25 and 35 is negligable

>>92663797
Wasnt Rutherford already on the ship in episode 1? It felt like Boimler and Tendi were the newbies.

>>92663814
It's necessary, they just want to get away with the emotional manipulation of killing characters but without the consequences of doing so.';

'>>92666721
>"like the same age" can mean a lot when the lifespan is now 190 or something. The difference between 25 and 35 is negligable
Not when you factor in context. If he meant a ten year difference that makes no sense in context.';

'undefined';

'undefined';

'>>92612865
Wow, someone was not happy with that Velma image. Definitely wasn't posted in the spirit of fostering good discussion, but given the thread didn't become a mess of shitposts it still feels weird it was nuked. Maybe that's just because I saw the LD thread on /co/ yesterday and it was about as awful as you could imagine. Do those goes get any sense of joy from anything besides hate?

Honestly the thread has just been slow. I think we're set to autosage tomorrow, and it will probably be awhile before we get a new one. Any other active series would be driving people to come here and post, so it's a testament to how awful STD is that it just does not. Barely anyone cares.

>>92666721
Rutherford was on the ship. We don't know for how long, long enough to get a rep as the number one systems guy. The thing is he should also have been a cyborg for probably a decade or more. Buenamigo sort of had the gray hair (hard to tell from the lighting in the flashback) but not the white, and he was only a lieutenant commander. I could be wrong and easily since he could have breezed up the ranks and everyone goes white at their own time. I'm iffier about Rutherford's timeline than I am about Mariner's, to be honest.';

'>>92673803
I think becoming an Admiral while having done insano-crooked shit and managing at least 1 unethical secret project would gray your hair really fucking quick. Dude was trying to feed old friends into danger to improve his projects, there's no way he wasn't an unhealthy stressball.';

'>>92673803
I do think Rutherford's timeline has just been a bit retconned, Im not sure if there's a way to square the circle.';

'>>92674301
It's curious that he mentions hitting a roadblock once you become an admiral where you wind up stuck in the lower ranks. So much time as a captain answering to admirals bossing you around, you finally get to be an admiral and it turns out the higher ranking admirals like Jellico boss you around, and apparently gatekeep getting to be on their level of boss-itude. On the other hand, he was clearly up to his pips in shady shit even before he became an admiral.

It was weird that he singled out Freeman for his schemes. I've wondered in the past if maybe it's because he knows her well that he felt he could gauge what would happen - but clearly didn't do a great job. It's possible he always meant to offer her that "promotion" to oversee the Texas-Class for fucking with her like that, but if that was the case he underestimated her there too.

My personal suspicion, founded on not much of anything, is that Section 31 will be the big thing this last episode to round out William Boimler's storyline. I could be wrong, they've done fakeouts before like how they tidied up Agimus, Peanut Hamper, and Badgey all in the same episode. If S31 is deeply involved I wouldn't be shocked if it turns out Buenamigo had ties to them, overseeing a black project to boost his own career. It would certainly tie things together. If that's the case, it's possible (but by now means guaranteed) that maybe Rutherford has some missing time that involved him being an S31 agent. Or rather his implant making him one. This could explain his improbable combat skills, and we've seen other instances when the implant can take over and basically automate him during the party "trial" when he helped steal an old Romulan ship.

Shit, could there be another personality within Rutherford? There's who he is, Red (seemingly gone forever), but possibly a Dark Rutherford from when he was programmed as a covert agent? It would suck if he has a hidden trigger phrase that allows the implant to take over again.';

'>>92674650
>Im not sure if there's a way to square the circle.
It's possible if they go the route laid out here >>92674734 since covering up any time period when he was doing off the books black ops would be easy. All they'd have to do is rewrite his service record.

I can see them doing this for dramatic purposes, but I kind of hope they don't. Rutherford is such a nice guy, I'd hate for him to fall into the "two sides" meme. It's weird enough seeing William Boimler as a version of Boimler with no morals and unrestricted ambition.';

'>>92666721
>hey just want to get away with t

every second of screen time has a unit cost, genuinely nobody is thinking yeah, hell yeah let's manipulate the 40 middle aged guys who like this particular actor as this particular character

all they are thinking is "we're going over budget if we don't trim this out"; it's not relevant in a medium like television where side characters show up out of nowhere or just disappear without remark all the time, you can just bring them back if there's any great call to do it

>rutherford

MA says he transferred the year before Boimler, enough time to bed in but not really the issue, which is that his implant is said to be post-transfer

but even that isn't the end of the world, you can just say he was a willing conspirator prior to that, or that he had a prior implant which was less extensive/visible

hell you can just never address it like Spock's secretive behavior, nobody's going to question it in-universe more than a computer asking "how do you feel"';

'>>92674927
>"we're going over budget if we don't trim this out"
I don't know what the budget is for this show, or how it works exactly with the modern condensed seasons, but I will really miss LD because while not everyone liked the style I felt they looked pretty good. They could give us new ships, new elements, new space stations, and it was presumably cheaper than real sets. They could also bring back classic ships and characters and these people could be younger than they currently are thanks to how much time has passed. It was nice seeing Tom Paris again (I still love when he mistook the filthy Boimler for a Kazon). That said I really hate that they didn't have any Voyager characters in the Voyager episode, not even at the end during the opening of the exhibition phase for the ship. With Janeway and Chakotay being involved with Prodigy I really wish they could have gotten them to show up at least for an "opening ceremony" for when the ship was on the Presidio. At least they got that right. It was a nice nod to VOY's Endgame. Makes it a shame that they later towed it into mothballs at Geordi's space station.';

'>>92674776
>It's weird enough seeing William Boimler as a version of Boimler with no morals and unrestricted ambition.
Is there some bonus material where he does shady stuff? Joining S31 to begin with is shady stuff but it's understandable, probably related to his divergent life experience, he wasn't all that happy doing high-action stuff on the Titan.';

'This would not have happened for several reasons, but since the Barzan Wormhole was within 200 lightyears of the Gamma Quadrant I'm curious about a Voyager What-If where they instead made their way for the Gamma Quadrant wormhole. The distances are about the same but they never know what shortcuts they might run into, and they'd be moving into an quadrant they would know has Federation activity, meaning potentially it wouldn't just be them finding shortcuts but potentially if they can get in contact with Starfleet they can gain intel on what they'd be heading into.

In many ways I'm glad they kept exploring the Delta Quadrant, but, again, just as a What-If I'm fascinated by the idea that Voyager might have wound up playing a role in the Dominion War from deep within the Gamma Quadrant behind enemy lines. I suppose it's the Warlord Janeway of the Warship Voyager meme. The biggest war in the Alpha Quadrant in over a century and she misses out on it. Imagine what damage she could have done unleashed on the Dominion.';

'>>92676984
William Boimler? The sinister laugh he was doing didn't seem all that stable, fwiw.';

'>>92676995
>>92676984
While I wouldn't be surprised if William Boimler was merely infiltrating S31, I actually wouldn't mind if it turns out it was legit and his commanding officer within the organization, the "new Sloan", is actually Thomas Riker. He survives the Cardassians only to decide to go rogue, again, only within Starfleet to protect the Federation even from itself if need be. It's not too far of a stretch from the twisted path he was on in DS9, and I also like the thematic mirror of Brad Boimler's dream job being on the Titan under Riker so his transporter clone winds up serving under Riker's transporter clone.';

'>>92676995
I guess that foreshadows that he will be shadier in the future but they also use that sort of thing to fake you out. I do think it would be cool if he was like Dark Boimler and was the main antagonist, he can show how cunning and effective a more-experienced Biomler is, then Brad can defeat him with all the friendship-lessons that Will didn't get. But I wouldn't say "a version of Biomler with no morals", Biomler was always a bit of a weasel (like how he raided everyone's persona logs for his butt-kissing simulation), I'm sure William still has a good heard and it's fun to think about how he could have gone in a different direction.';

'>>92677076
We know Boimler can be surprisingly devious, but when he used this against Agimus he used it for good.';

'>>92676986
the Gamma Quadrant terminus of the Bajoran wormhole is on the fringes of the galaxy in most depictions: i think even in "Emissary" it may be shown to terminate about 40,000 light years from where Voyager ends up, a shorter journey but still 40 years into unknown territory

https://www.oocities.org/themikejonas/wormhole.htm';

'>>92675209
Think of it this way: maybe there's an equally impressive ship sitting on the Presidio in 2402, and everyone who was on Voyager agrees it deserves its time there.';

'>>92655788
>Just you wait.
I now understand, Jesus Hard Time was harsh';

'>>92678848
A 40 year journey into the unknown beats a 70 year one, but Janeway knows that the shortest distance between any two points is a straight line through the most populated parts of the quadrant leaving a trail of smoldering corpses behind her.';

'>>92680294
O'Brien must suffer, anon, O'Brien must suffer';

'>>92684659
But why must he suffer?';

'>>92618771
did "the ship participates in a local racing competition" with a Naboo royal yacht, Normandy from Mass Effect, and Al'kesh from Stargate. The bad guys were some Klingons who crashed the race for their own sport (a hunt)';