'Daggerfall was cute and janky; Oblivion is the same design philosophies trying to tell us it's a grownup as it proceeds to spill shards of meth onto our rugs. Until Pagliarulo is ousted and the whole of the West is taught that he was a bad and stupid man we will remain trapped in the past.';

'>>3480544
>They both possess a procedural generated overworld and dungeons.
Don't. Don't even bait. People will believe this and repeat it without thinking.';

'Oblivion as it's full of sovlfvl kino';

'>>3480554
it's true, you blind faggot. the world was generated, then populated with hand placed structures, whose interiors (at least the dungeons) were also all generated.';

'>>3480544
>>3480568
OP are you happy now? It isn't all fun and games anymore, is it? Look at the consequences of your actions. Look at this retard. He is your retard, and you are responsible for the shit he posts from now on. You can't force this retard back in Pandora's box. He's out there now, being a retard. All because you had to bait.';

'>>3480574
nigger you are retarded, it's a verifiable fact. both that Oblivion extensively used procedural generation, and that you are retarded. happy now? you faggot';

'>>3480580
Please, go find your OP. He will look after you.';

'>>3480574
Rip, only sane anon in this thread';

'OP is a retard, this is now officially a Mythic Dawn Thread

Post your ideas about Mankar Camoran's revolutionary Commentaries and the philosophy behind them';

'>>3480544
Oblivion is probably the most boring mid 2000s game I've ever played
I genuinely remember not having fun but being the autistic middle schooler that I was continued to take my horse everywhere without fast travel "for the immersion"';

'>>3480933
Peak Oblivion was getting a fireball spell and casting it at a bowl full of apples and watching them fly everywhere with physics.';

'>>3480544
is this a joke?
Oblivion is way better';

'>>3480935
I've always preferred Morrowind because you could place things around your house and didn't have to carefully balance them or have them fly into outer space upon collision.
Oblivion is a nightmare for autistic LARPers';

'>>3480944
You know how a girl will wear a band t-shirt and someone will autisticly test their knowledge. "Oh ya, name 5 songs you like!" Your post proves you truly played Oblivion. "Furniture going into outer space." Ya, you're an Oblivion vet.';

'>>3480944
Also true. Another thing I missed after Morrowind was the ability to pick up books (I.e. skill books) without reading them by picking them up from the game world in the inventory screen';

'>>3480544
I beat oblivion like 3 times with different characters

I can't play character more than 5 hours on daggerfall let alone even do anything related to the main quest';

'>nobody knows the overworld was initially procedurally generated
GRIM';

'>>3480580
That doesn't mean that Oblivion posesses a randomly generated world. Just that one step in the design process was randomly generated.';

'>>3480544
Neither deserve to be played or discussed. Play something other than bethesda games for once.';

'>>3481644
>please play my rpg maker games
No.';

'>>3481642
you fucking retard, I already said what they fucking did. they generated the fucking world, then they hand placed structures. get the wax out your ears';

'>>3481341
>nobody knows the overworld was initially procedurally generated
I am in my 30's and i had no idea oblivion had anything like that.';

'>>3482222
Same, and same. I thought they used satellite topographical data of the real Cyrodiil.';

'Weren't all of Oblivion's dungeons designed by a single guy on the team?';

'>>3482222
QU A D S';

'>>3480544
Daggerfall of course.';

'>>3482408
based department calling';

'>>3480935
For a brief moment you reminded me of when I was actually happy';

'>>3482300
It's why they're all literally the same half a dozen rooms lego pieced together in different orders.
Morrowind at least had hand crafted and unique dungeons.';

'>>3483994
You should play Morrowind sometime lol';

'>>3483996
I've beat it twice and beat every guild fuck off mouthbreather.';

'>>3483996
>You should play Morrowind sometime lol
NTA but I just recently played both Morrowind and Oblivion and they're not comparable in this regard. I did every dungeon in Morrowind and never saw identical rooms copy-pasted, which does occur several times in Oblivion. You could make an argue that many dungeons in Morrowind are simple, repetitive, and boring, but that's not the same thing.';

'>>3483997
>>3484000
Uh huh. You guys ever visited tombs? The most plain examples.';

'>>3484002
Are you stoopit? Reusing the same textures and style is not the same as literally the same copy pasted rooms of morrowind. I think you need to replay both';

'>>3484005
>same copy pasted rooms of morrowind.
I mean oblivion. Oblivion's elf ruins have outright 6 different rooms reused.';

'>>3484005
Anon, MW and Oblivion dungeons are constructed in a similar manner, except Morrowind's are more simplistic. Ever visited dunmer forts?

I don't know what else to say.. You're just delusional lol';

'>>3484013
Seriously are you retarded? There's a huge different between reusing style and textures and LITERALLY THE SAME ROOM. I've never seen someone as audaciously retarded as you.';

'>>3484015
Morrowind doesn't have repeating rooms, then?';

'>>3484015
>I've never seen someone as audaciously retarded as you.
First time discussing Morrowind on /vrpg/?';

'>>3484002
yes, they're tombs. they look the same. they're supposed to.';

'>>3480544
Daggerfall is immersive for the shear size of it. The towns and settlements have realistic populations (the walled cities probably surpass some of even the largest ancient and medieval cities). Even though there's nothing much in the wilderness, it's presence would be missed. It really helps the player feel like he's in the game, because the next major settlement does just feel like it's a mile away, he knows it IS a mile away.

What's more, as you play and progress outside of the main quest, you'll probably get used to going to just a few major towns, and you'll know how to navigate them without issue. However, if a quest sends you to a town you don't frequent, you will need to ask directions and use your map. This very realistically mimics real-life navigation in towns.

The Downsides are that a great deal of the game looks the same, and quests are highly repetitive. 99% of Faction quests boil down to go to [dungeon or town], then [kill person or acquire item]. And each faction has a very small pool of quests templates to draw from.

Oblivion is immersive because it still conveys a great sense of scale (though diminished by almost always having the imperial city in sight). The graphics are more true to life, the soundtrack is more cohesive than Daggerfall's, and it has an undeniably charming art style.

While the small pool of voice actors is unfortunate, there is a certain novelty to having everything fully-voiced, even with the disadvantages that come from that. I remember in the days of it's release, having come from Morrowind, I was blown away by it.

Oblivions diminished character customization (especially compared to Daggerfall and even Morrowind), is a major step backward, and the overbearing level scaling neutralizes your progression.

Both games are excellent, and it really depends on your preferences. If I had to pick one to play for the rest of time, it would probably be Daggerfall, but I'm not entirely sure.';

'>>3484323
>tombs are supposed to look the same
I guess there's government regulations I'm not aware of';

'Oblivion world spaces begin with a height map (elevation of terrain) that is imported into the game. However smaller sized elevation changes are done manually. I believe landcover textures for tiles have to be placed manually, as does vertex shading. Flora and rocks can be generated based on parameters controlling spacing between objects and other factors. However the vertex shading for these objects also needs to be painted manually and they usually need position adjustments too. Larger structures like dungeon entrances, ruins and if course settlements are placed manually.
This is based on what's available in the Construction Set.';

'>>3480554
It's true, though. They both possess a procedural generated overworld and dungeons.';

'I still play daggerfall with mods to this day. I dont play oblivion with or without mods. oblivion was good but idk it just felt 2 jank for its time. had tons of fun with it and mods for a long time tho. But Daggerfall hits different for me and I love getting lost in dungeons and doing quests for prostitutes and getting stronger';

'>>3483994
>>3484000
If we are going to be honest, 90% of the dungeons in morrowind can be cleared in like 2 minutes. They're like 5-6 rooms size.';

'>>3484000
>I did every dungeon in Morrowind and never saw identical rooms copy-pasted
You're lying, or you're so terribly biased towards morrowind that you decided to ignore how crypts look all the same. They're basically the same pre-made asset rooms connected to each other differently. But you can see that each room is the same, with everything but in the same place as previous dungeons.
They are also very short dungeons compared to the average in oblivion and skyrim. But this is a plus for me because a hate long-ass dungeon crawling';

'>>3486219
>They're basically the same pre-made asset rooms connected to each other differently
This is technically true, but the individual components are small and non-descript enough that they don’t feel copy-pasted. It’s like making different and unique shapes out of a large number of Lego bricks. I didn’t once think to myself “motherfucker this is the exact same giant room as that other dungeon” like in Diablo 1 for example. I did encounter that in Oblivion, particularly in the Ayyyleid ruins. I don’t remember which ones, but it was some that I went through for “the collector” quest. It was a very large square room, two stories with interconnects, several sets of stairs, and gas traps, very unique and recognizable geometry, and as soon as I went through it the second time I immediately thought “they just copy pasted this fucking room wholesale” which was immediately immersion breaking.';

'>>3486249
Kek I'm almost about to install Morrowind to grab screenshots of the samey rooms, just to make you see how delusional you are, goddamn';

'BROS THE CITY OF VIVIC LOOK DA SAEM';

'>>3486254
Have at it, anon. I hope you have fun doing so. I acknowledged the existence phenomenon and simply stated that in my subjective opinion, the degree of it in Morrowind wasn’t noticeable or bothersome, while it was, to me, in Oblivion. I’d chalk it up to a difference of opinion, if I were you.';

'>>3486276
Did you post this?
>>3484000
>I did every dungeon in Morrowind and never saw identical rooms copy-pasted, which does occur several times in Oblivion
Did you do every dungeon in Oblivion?';

'>>3486282
Yep, that’s me. No, I did not do every dungeon in Oblivion. I intended to before starting the game but honestly I got burned out by cave #94 with Minotaurs and land dreughs. I settled on only doing ones with a quest attached that were thematically appropriate for my character. To be fair, doing every dungeon in Morrowind did end up being a chore by the end too, but I was much further along and closer to being finished before they became tedious, and as other anons have noted, they’re generally much shorter.';

'>>3486287
Fair enough. That probably affects your perception of the dungeons. Bigger sample size leads to remembering more good bits.';

'>>3481650
My rpg maker games are SOVL, EVROPA and maybe even HYPERBOREA. Oblivion is globohomo gay bear trany gayslop.';

'>>3486293
RPG Slopper games are diluted slop made by talentless spergs inspired by slop';

'>>3480544
Oblivion's dungeons are not procedurally generated....';

'>>3486301
No, rpg maker is used by auteurs to craft masterpieces. I bet you didn't even played False GamerGater.';

'>>3486328
I heard he hates lgbt and should be banned from /vrpg/ for that';

'>>3486333
He's a POC muslim and you are being racist.';

'>>3486348
My apologies to all gay muslims in the rpg maker community';

'>>3484359
>Daggerfall is immersive for the shear size of it
>The food is tasteless but at least the portions are big';

'>>3486215
Sure, no if is arguing against it. But they're all unique.';

'>>3482300
No, they were designed by like 4 or 5.';

'>>3486289
Thought about it today, while I still think that Morrowind's dungeons (even if it was just a three room cave with slavers named Ashilimanipu Kwamason and Ingvar Elf-Bane), although often assembled from small sub-pieces of similar tilesets (e.g. Dunmer tombs, or strongholds), are generally distinct and unique enough to not feel copy-pasted, I can think of at least one particular room that stands out as being used multiple times. A big oval, two story, open in the middle with an upper track ringing around the edges, with stairs in the center to go down into it. Thought I'd mention this in the interest of honesty.

Morrowind dungeons:
+some of them are really cool, detailed, and unique, many of these are related to quests admittedly, but there are some cool ones with weird shit in them that are in the middle of nowhere and have no reason to be there other than to find something neat while exploring
-many, perhaps most of them are fairly boring and pointless, and could likely be removed from the game without issue
+most NPCs are hand-placed, unique, and a person gave them specific stats, skills, items, and a name
+most of the important, rare, useful, or valuable loot was placed there by hand
+/- they're usually short, a blessing or a curse depending on your perspective
My takeaway after replaying was that I wish Bethesda had continued to build on Morrowind's strengths while also improving its flaws, and I wished for fewer, longer, and more detailed and interesting dungeons, with less filler';

'>>3487066
Oblivion:
+ elements like traps and secret doors are more interesting than Morrowind
+/- most dungeons are significantly longer and more complex than Morrowind's. blessing or curse, take your pick
- most of the important, rare, useful, or valuable loot is now in a "boss chest" at the end, and randomly generated from leveled lists
- most NPCs are generic, nameless, and given stats, skills, and items from leveled lists
+/- many dungeons now loop back around with a shortcut from the end to the beginning. Some will think this is a nice convenience, some will argue it breaks immersion
- copy/pasted design, quantity > quality, is more obvious than in Morrowind

In the end I felt like I got monkey paw'd, one step forward two steps back, a common experience watching Bethesda games progress through the years. They were certainly longer than Morrowind, but the lack of unique enemies and unique loot made them harken back to Daggerfall, which I always disliked as boring and generic due to its lack of hand-crafted elements and quests. Procedural generation is utterly soulless and unappealing to me. I liked Morrowind specifically because it reversed the trend from Daggerfall from large amounts of slop to hand-crafted details. I would've liked to see Bethesda continue the trend of changes they made from TES2 to TES3. Instead, they reversed course with TES4, and then half-heartedly course corrected and backed off somewhat with TES5. Kinda feels like they lacked vision of one person in charge, and were just chasing trends and designing by committee. And Starfield looked like absolute ass, so I no longer have any hopes for TES6. I passed on Fallout 4 because I disliked 3.';

'>>3487067
>+/- most dungeons are significantly longer and more complex than Morrowind's. blessing or curse, take your pick
>- copy/pasted design, quantity > quality, is more obvious than in Morrowind
Your opinion is biased. For example, you only did quest-related dungeons, which tend to be longer. Even around the Imperial City there are short dungeons, like Sercen which is just a large hall, and Fort Nikel with the bandit vs Marauder battle going on.

You compliment Morrowind for the unique dungeons found by exploring on your own, but you never gave Oblivion that chance.

The criticism I agree with is the lack of valuable hand-placed items, which are limited to clutter, or low level enchanted gear, alchemy equipment and potions. Skyrim improved this with hand-placed items being leveled.';

'https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Noah_Berry:_A_Brief_History_of_Cyrodiil';

'>>3480544
Daggerfall';

'>>3487211
Morrowind just has more variety in general, off the top of my head there are caves, tombs, dwemer ruins, daedric ruins, and dunmer strongholds. Oblivion really only has caves, ayleid ruins and regular ruins (both with pretty similar theming)';

'>>3487407
And daedric dungeons.';

'>>3487211
>You compliment Morrowind for the unique dungeons found by exploring on your own, but you never gave Oblivion that chance.
You have a fair point here, anon. Also, I would add that I did initially set out to do the same in Oblivion (started out on foot with the imperial city ring road, then gradually cleared each branch of road along the pilgrimage quest for KotN) and only stopped because I was finding monster caves tedious. To be fair, I found the same thing happening towards the end of clearing the Morrowind map as well: I think that another valuable conclusion is that exploration is more enjoyable when done organically, and when it begins to feel like an obligation, a chore, or an obstacle to doing what wants, then it stops being as fun. I think approaching games as large as TES with a completionist mindset is likely a mistake for most people.

I’ll also add that I observed a big difference in mindset within the same dungeon (let’s say the elven ruin right by the sewer exit) depending on if you’re level 1 and just starting the game (whoa! Cool! Look at this X, and so on) versus coming back to it at level 50 towards the end of a run, when it’s simply a quest checkbox to tick. I noticed that even the difficulty of locked chests was scaled to my level, which was jarring';

'>>3487443
>I’ll also add that I observed a big difference in mindset within the same dungeon depending on if you’re level 1
That's true. When you're level 50, you don't need anything from a dungeon. Endgame is boring to me, so I make new characters.';

'>>3480544
I would absolutely love an Oblivion mod/remake that was procgen outside of major towns and main quest dungeons like Daggerfall. Would definitely breath some new life into what is one of my favorite games of all time.';

'>>3487489
>I would absolutely love an Oblivion mod/remake that was procgen outside of major towns and main quest dungeons like Daggerfall
so... dagerfall 2.0?';

'my zoomer brain couldnt play dagger fall';

'aao';

'>>3487304
Most relevant post here.';

'>>3480544
Oblivion is carried by nostalgia. The only good part about the base game were the guild quests. The game was saved by the Shivering Isles DLC.';

'>>3480568
>>3485552
it's pretty lame to say since the dev team have unlimited time to touch it up, sculpt it and terraform it before shipping it. A true procedural game doesn't have this luxury.';

'>>3488364
I just replayed Oblivion for the first time since 2006. The base game was tolerable though not great, but SI was absolute garbage and virtually unplayable';

'>>3486361
The food isn't tasteless, though. Daggerfall has a very charming semi-cartoon art-style. The game is visually pleasing despite it's shear size. The main street in the city of Daggerfall leading up to the palace is very comfy.';

'>>3487066
It wouldn't have hurt if a couple of the dungeons had been greatly expanded, I particularly remember being disappointed the first time I went to Dagoth Ur, but if every dungeon is a 3 layer cake then backtracking becomes such a hassle you have to turn it into a donut. Maintaining a balance between short and long dungeons also helps to make the long ones feel long rather than just average.';

'>>3491550
SI is just wacky shit with barely anything holding it all together and just as much shitty combat if not more because you'll probably enter the realm in the later levels';

'>>3491960
>Maintaining a balance between short and long dungeons also helps to make the long ones feel long rather than just average.
True, good point. One thing I'd add is that I think Morrowind-style fast travel really feels a lot better than the convenient but dumbed-down fast travel of Oblivion or Skyrim. Even with the convenience of the "pop back to the beginning" looping dungeons and limitless fast travel to and from anywhere, it still doesn't feel as cool, particularly in Skyrim since they took out the ability to level your speed and acrobatics and fly around the map bunnyhopping quickly. Even in Morrowind, you still had the utility of mark and recall and divine intervention to get around the map (including to and from a specific point deep in a dungeon, which was very handy), and once you got used to the fast travel network, I enjoyed planning out trips like "okay, I can Divine Intervention over to Ebonheart, then spend 20 seconds jumping to the docks, from there I can ferry around to the otherside of the island, or I can take a boat to Vivec and then spend 5 seconds hopping over to the silt strider, then a trip or two and I can be in Balmora or Ald-Ruhn, and if I'm really in a hurry I can get off there and pop into the Mages' Guild teleporters because those are instantaneous, and..." and so on. Little details, but enjoyable.';