'>>181554
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPhI9ZC9O2U&ab_channel=DrissJamai';

'>What is goju?
Goju aka Gōjū-ryū (剛柔流) (or hard and soft style) is a modern martial art originating on the island of Okinawa in the 1930s by a man named Chojun Miyagi (the real life inspiration for Mr.Miyagi in the karate kid film series). It is much more modern and refined compared to traditional martial arts such as boxing and brazilian jiujitsu

>What does hard and soft style mean?
Hard and soft style means goju could be considered the original mixed martial art! It was created on the Island of okinawa which was at the center of trade in east asia. It combines striking techniques found from china and thailand with the indigenous okinawan wrestling techniques to create a truly complete fighting art
https://youtu.be/5kv8HkGWo2Q

>What is the purpose of Goju?
the purpose of goju has always been for personal self defense as well as building a hardy and fit body through rigorous daily training and conditioning

>I've heard it's related to Kyokushin?
That's correct. Mas Oyama was a 7th degree black belt in Goju, however he wanted his students to compete in competitions therefore he had to strip away some of the more dangerous techniques found in Goju to create Kyokushin which by comparison is much safer to use in a sport setting. Similar to how Kano needed to modify battlefield jujitsu into judo.

>What is sparring like?
Sparring in goju is done with full contact and intensity, however for safety reasons Some of the more dangerous techniques are generally left out of sparring so as to not permanently injure other students
examples of striking and grappling training can be seen here
https://youtu.be/vvJo4B50TVI
https://youtu.be/TsBsyCLBTUg
https://youtu.be/dK__ILvQ20w
https://youtu.be/NBrWIfIbX-A

>Sounds great! how can I learn it??
Goju is not very wide spread outside of Okinawa, because its so modern and exclusive, but it does exist in other parts of the world as well
if you cannot find it near you, you can get started with this
https://youtu.be/_RmCzJ0m1Xs';

'>>181560
Too bad cringe katas and bunkais are 80% of goju training.';

'Should I join kyokushin for a while?
I only train WKF-like karate.';

'>>181580
It will be very different. I have done shotokan, kickboxing, and now am doing kyokushin. The kyokushin training generally has more in common with the kickboxing. Even the Kata are different and imo are very ugly compared to shotokan. Equally useless for learning how to fight but inferior dances nonetheless.';

'>>181568
You say that like it's a problem.';

'>>181619
Of course it's a problem because katas are useless';

'>>181620
Spoken like a real edgy 15 year old';

'What the fuck is up with Kyokushin breathing? It's like they're constantly trying to hock phlem. You go to China and find the White Crane styles that became the basis for Goju-ryu and you won't find that weird ass breathing.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNknPmOmBJo';

'>>181635
>t. le deadly palm strike practitioner';

'>>181637
Palm strikes being an instant-kill technique is an old wives tale, but they do work.';

'>>181640
Of course they work if you use them in absolutely different way than in kata, this is why I say katas are useless';

'In pursuit of the back kick since 2010
I would get yelled at every time for my foot not being perfectly 12-6
More like 1-7
After repping it thousands of times I've decided aiming for the perfect 12-6 is pointless

My evidence
1. 12-6 The glute blocks the leg from lifting as far as it can 1-7 allows the hip to open and increases usable height of the kick
2. That slight turn makes it easier to spot so it's not a blind technique
3. The 12-6 claim is that its more powerful but I haven't experienced evidence of this, in fact to the contrary just like with a punch the motion of the hip turning over slightly on the 1-7 recruits more muscles and increases the power';

'>>181669
Iirc the way Japanese karate and yes even kyokushin teaches this kick and the sidekick is just straight up wrong compared to American kickboxing and TKD do it. Joe Rogan and Stephen Thompson have good videos on sidekicks and back kicks + turning variations.';

'The algorithm has him now boys
https://youtu.be/cLJAqmjh980?si=SX4Uz3b9yLh35f8J';

'>>181716
How'd you get this video of me?';

'Point-style its overrated or underrated?
It really gives you unorthodox points or doesn't worth it?';

'>>182187
Appropriately rated. Everyone knows it's dumb
Taking an exercise and expanding it to be a discipline on its own was the death blow to karate being mainstream';

'>>182187
So overrated that it looped back around to being underrated. Doing ONLY points styles is dumb and gives you a lot of bad habits in a real fight. If you do it as a training tool, it can be very helpful in a lot of ways. Even non-karatekas have benefited from doing points training, like Henry Cejudo, the Pitbull brothers, etc.';

'I keep finding /asp/ posters online
https://youtu.be/6c0mo5zLdbQ?si=1XGhWpOj4r_seJGO';

'>>182273
This shit was so funny I can't believe someone recorded this video and said yup, time to upload.';

'I lost it right at the beginning when the grown adult fucking man steps out to do his white belt test with the 8 year olds

https://www.youtube.com/live/Vhsx4H8CxUk?si=GakqBYIHLJDFHvzS';

'So there's this Goju Ryu place not too far from where I live. They're a traditional, Okinawan place. If I went there, what would be the main differences between that and a Japanese one?';

'>>182755
They say Okinawan dojos are more relaxed and smaller than Japanese ones which is run with military discipline, customs, and shieet.
>Goju-ryu
You're going to do a lot of hojo undo,';

'>>181560
What moves are banned in Kyokushin and allowed in Goju?
And what are other differences between Goju and Kyokushin?';

'>>181554
Is Asihara karate being deadly or viable for self defense a meme? Or are there better styles?';

'undefined';

'H-hayaaa!!!';

'>>182757
Is there much difference in technique, tactics, mindset/philosophy, etc?';

'>>182852
>kyokushin with "modern" mentality
It's fine';

'>>181665
Katas are not meant to be direct, explicit instructions for techniques to be used verbatim in a match or fight. Instead, katas are more like structured, choreographed patterns of movements that are practiced to develop various skills and attributes. These include balance, timing, coordination, and understanding of rhythm and flow. The movements in a kata often have deeper, more practical applications, bunkai, which can be adapted for use in actual self-defense or combat situations. The exact movements in a kata are not used as-is in a fight. The value of katas lies more in the principles and concepts they teach, rather than in providing a step-by-step guide to combat techniques.
>tl;dr: You're a retard.';

'>>183376
>Okinawan Karate
More focused on the self defense/development aspects. Practically, it is focused on katas & conditioning. Keep in mind at various times in China & Japan, weapons & even the practice of martial arts, at all, was banned. Especially amongst peasantry, which is why many kobudo weapons were repurposed farming/fishing tools. As a result training was adapted to reduce the risk of injury that would have outed oneself as a martial artist. Plus, when you're a broke ass peasant, you can't be risking your livlihood for martial arts, when just being found out would get your ass dragged to jail, to say nothing of losing your ability to provide for yourself & your family. They still sparred just as hard as other styles, if not harder, but much less frequently, and typically during the off seasons so they would have time to recover before work. Plus during holidays & festivals, rules were relaxed a little bit regarding martial demonstrations.
>Japanese Karate
Typically developed by the more well off warrior class, so it went a little harder & more sporty. This resulted in a lot of little stylistic changes as the goals were different. Ironically this is what resulted in less focus on head strikes & typically softer more noncompetitive sparring, since you were going at it more often. Not just for practical reasons, but as a member of the hoity toity upper class it wouldn't do to have blemishes & injuries from training. Especially during a time when Japan was cucking themselves to the west trying to show how non-barbaric they were.
>tl;dr: Okinawan is practically soft but stern. Japanese is practically hard but sporty.';

'>>183508
>various times in China & Japan, weapons & even the practice of martial arts, at all, was banned
Only if you're some faggot square muh good citizen. Chads who made kickass anime lore, cool gang signs (that you can still see in Karate katas) and made the southern styles of kung fu (where Karate came from) joined secret societies like the tiandihui and carried weapons, did martial arts, and practiced based banditry and racism.';

'>>183530
Thats not even in the same time period anon referred to. Tiandihui was under british colonial rule. The aforementioned peasantry that practiced in secret did the same thing, far as having secret clubs & carrying weapons to protect themselves. Only instead of being out right criminals, they were more like libertarians, "fuck the state" and all that. Think you're romanticizing chigger behavior a little too much there. Tiandihui were an ineffectual bunch of rabble rousers who contributed practically nothing to the fall of the Qing dynasty & had been such little shits that once Qing was over and they could finally come out of hiding, they were still so universally hated they had no choice but to turn to crime & became the OG triads.';

'>>183504
>These include balance, timing, coordination, and understanding of rhythm and flow
Weightlifter needs all this attributes but he trains them by doing weightlifting and not skiing which also trains all these attributes. Balance timing andcoordination in kata are not applicable to fighting.
>The movements in a kata often have deeper, more practical applications
No, they have not. Kata bunkai and techniques are useless non working bullshit from fantasies that looks like picrel
>The value of katas lies more in the principles and concepts they teach
What principles and concepts do they teach?';

'>>183844
Nigga you can beat all the karate masters you want in front of their students and still you will not change their mindset and way of training.';

'>>183844
I posted this image when debating about bunkai with you one or two /kg/ ago and you're still getting into /kg/ saying karate is useless.
I tried to be reasonable but your so pathetic even good intentions cannot stop you from being a cunt.
For anyone reading: just ignore this shithead there is nothing of value there.
And for you one last advice: do something you care about instead of wasting your time and everyone else's.';

'>>183937
>saying karate is useless
Citation or never happened
>I tried to be reasonable
Can you be reasonable and tell me how the technique from pic can work?';

'>>184000
Not that anon, but isn't that pic from Heian Yodan? Wasn't there some other anon who interpreted that as an arm drag?
>inb4 muh palm strike
You know you can just use a backfist to smack people instead of whatever was shown in the kata.';

'>>183844
>hundreds of years of martial arts experience
Or
>some retard on 4chan
Idk what to tell you dude. You can think what you want, just so happens that you're wrong though. Bet your dumbass doesnt even realize how many pros have belts in styles like karate. By your retarded logic, going to gun range or shooting course isn't going to help you handle a firearm any better. Which is bullshit. Kata/forms, thats the equivalent here. These idealized movements, it's all just target practice. No karateka really thinks thats how the fight will go down. Just like no markman expects targets to just stand still the whole time. But with enough practice you find your windows of opportunity.';

'>>184012
>something something something cringe shooting analogy something something something that's why kata are good
Kek, you made wrong analogy. The better analogy for shooting kata would be putting dildo in anus and saying it somehow trains balance and coordination for shooting and teaches you le principles.
>Kata/forms, thats the equivalent here
LMAO retard, and what is shooting equivalent for bunkai then? Why shooting doesn't have such retarded thing while karate has? Why you don't need to decipher any shooting technique, why it doesn't have multiple interpretations?';

'>>184018
You realize this is an opinion of martial arts, karate, etc. That only exists online. People in the real world appreciate it for what it is and only faggot little larpers like you ever say this dumbass shit online. This opinion doesn't even exist amongst pro fighters. This is just sad.';

'>>184018
>Why you don't need to decipher any shooting technique, why it doesn't have multiple interpretations?';

'>>184021
>This opinion doesn't even exist amongst pro fighters
Wrong. Most pro fighters never did kata in their lives which 100% means they find kata useless.
>>184042
So you posted how you can have several different techniques to do one thing? So what? I never said you can't have several types of punches, or several techniques for chokes. But only in karate you have cringe situation where for one "technique" you have several different interpretations, like age uke can be a block (but we never use it for blocking), or a grip break (but we never use it for breaking grip) or a LMAO choke (nuff said here). That's actually why you need bunkai - because katas are useless.';

'>>184021
Also LMAO a this powerless crying
>please, stop dicussing katas, please stop asking legit questions, other people..... just do them, ok?
What concepts did katas teach you, again? How many times you performed this block and punch >>183844 in any sort of sparring?';

'>>184021
I'm from Russia and I aware of how local boxers and Dagestan wrestlers see karate. I'm 100% sure Khabib would say kata are useless dances and I'm 120% sure if such topic came up among his friends they would not mince words. Paraphrase "Хoть бoкcёp хoть кapaтиcт для бopцa ты лишь apтиcт" ("even a boxer, even a karateka, for a wrestler you are only a dancer") exists for a reason. I'm not saying they are right but this is how they feel';

'>>184018
>The gay shit I do in my bedroom is just like karate training
Way to out yourself as a faggot there, anon.';

'>>184117
>listening to the opinions of weight class bullies
The only legit fights I feel he ever took were Gleison & Laquinta. Over 30% of his matches were by decision & only won because of human backpack bullshit.
>>184072
That exact fucking pose/posture, only a few, but thats the fucking point dipshit. It's a highly idealized form, something to aim for in the chaos of a fight/sparring. Are ypu going to get that EXACT fucking thing? No, just like a boxer isn't always going to get that perfect head movement in drills either. It's a drill, that's all. Every damn style has drills that rehearse these ideal conditions to be ready for.';

'>>184125
>he answered to gay shit and did answer to bunkai shit
Wow, really makes me think';

'>>184151
>and did answer to bunkai shit
*didn't
fix';

'>>184132
>It's a highly idealized form, something to aim for in the chaos of a fight/sparring
1) It's idealized form of something you will never even try to perform. No one, absolutely no one will ever try to perform this >>183844 shit against head punch, no matter how many times he did it in kata or bunkai. 2) how the fuck stopping after a punch, freezeing with straightent hand in deep lunge can be ideal for punch? 3) how the fuck age uke in kata can be idealized form of block, idealized form of grip break and idealized form of LMAO choke at the SAME time? How does this magic called?';

'>>184155
>reality is just what I say it is
You argue like a tranny argues for their gender. Just insisting deflects don't exist. YWNBAW/M.';

'>>181620
https://www.youtube.com/@KarateBreakdown';

'So, do you guys just do karate, or do you cross train with other martial arts and combat sports?';

'>>184218
>another analogy as a proof
You argue like I banged your moma yesterday';

'>>184221
God damn just imaging that there is "people" right now here in this ITT LMAO thread that seriosly think that what does karateka here is """idealized""" version of sambo throw
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EJRPdJRsXbs
But what is more ridiculous, these "people" also think that this "technique" at the SAME time is also idealized version of some cringe rubbish like this
https://youtu.be/ECb3eDXBj7M?t=349
You think that's all? No! It's also idealized version of this
https://youtu.be/0QPMd8uDpME?t=42

That technique has nothing to do with sambo throw. Absolutely different movements and points to applying force. Karateka's own bunkai is always cringe rubbish like in last two videos, and they understand this, so they are always looking at what happens in other martial arts to find some minor similarities between other MAs working techniques and kata cringe techniques to make videos like on this channel. And EVEN if in Heian Godan was encoded that sambo throw exactly, kata still would be rubbish because learning the sequence of movements has nothing to do with learning the technique.';

'>>184247
I did Muay Thai and Kali then went to Karate after my instructors for both went away and taught elsewhere.';

'>>184254
How did you find karate compared to muay thai?';

'>>184251
what are you so upset about? that guy isn't a professional fighter so he doesn't move like one. he says in his most recent video that things come out in sparring and then he notices they "feel like" movements he practices in kata. that's the point of the kata';

'>>184271
Muay Thai is a lot more straightforward. I didn't even wear any uniform when I did it. Just showed up wearing basketball shorts and a t-shirt (or undershirt). Karate seems to be more technical down to the small details ("No you're supposed to do that in zenkutsu dachi!", "Your backstance needs to be corrected, anon" "You should punch like this") and has a bunch of stuff and traditions. I love the history, Jap autism to detail, the uniform, even the katas though mostly because I'm a history nerd anyways. Most of my kicks are still from Muay Thai. Muay Thai background made Kihon and drills a lot easier to grasp. Also the rules in kumite, though at first seemed suffocating and limiting (I can't kick knees, or use elbow and knee strikes), I kinda find it helpful in managing my anger issues. Huh, I guess Gichin Funakoshi is on to something with his idea of making more decent people through karate-do. We do JKA style kumite and bare knuckle sparring is kinda exciting.

PS: Random question: Does Muay Thai have any connection to how Karate came to be? Okinawans literally trade with Thais. Their Awamori is made with Thai rice. Also it felt too easy for me to integrate to karate for some reason.';

'There seems like there's some interesting and worthwhile aspects to karate, but I'm really having a hard time with this part:
>watch a bit of karate combat
>bas rutten and gsp are explaining and demonstrating the differences between particular styles as if it matters on some level
>styles in question are usually related to two of the fighters you're about to see
>cuts back to the fight
>fight begins
>both fighters just adopt a kind of kickboxing stance, then start fighting like kickboxers, but without the quality of fighting seen in kickboxing or muay thai
How do you get around this? A lot of it seems like it gets discarded when they actually have to do any fighting.';

'>>184348
Kickboxing is just karate without the formality
Everybody in karate combat did point karate which is shit for really fighting so really they're beginner kickboxers and it shows

Also it doesn't help the karate combat judges basically make the rules up as they go';

'>>184349
Okay. So if I did a more traditional style, what can I expect in sparring, or whatever relevant Japanese term you guys use? If you do something like bare knuckle sparring, are you still allowed to punch to the face?
I'm not purely concerned with learning to fight, or I'd look elsewhere. I just want to try and gauge where it might have shortfalls in terms of actually teaching a person to defend themself.';

'undefined';

'>>184348
karate's a grappling martial art as much as a striking martial art and they don't know or do that. they're all point fighters, so they basically have no relevant karate application whatsoever. you're not watching karate sparring, you're watching point fighting sparring that doesn't get split up';

'The more I think of it. Karate just devolves into kickboxing when rules are imposed and it's between two karatekas. The best way to show what karate really looks like without the rules or restrictions is when fighting against normies. All the katas are fighting techniques against normies. It's a lot less likely you'll encounter a martial artist in a fist fight over your neighbor's dog shitting on your yard, a drunk dude fucking up your car, or someone spitting on your shoe deliberately. Probably the worst you'll encounter are former hand egg players, collegiate wrestlers, or a cop. Maybe it's a lot more different back in the day when all dudes, unless you're some limp wristed scholar, did some sort of wrestling for fun like Sumo or the Okinawan Shima so you used eye gouging and shit.
>Naihanchi is starting to make a lot of sense once you know everyone did wrestling for fun back then';

'>>184251
>>184250
>no fights larper detected
swear your the same faggot shit bag that just jumps through every thread starting shit. Like, fuck off to another thread if you hate karate so much. But you won't. Cause you're a no fights larper & this shit is the closest you will ever get to being legit.';

'>>184376
Understood. Don't get me wrong here: I'm interested in karate and am looking to find a good place to train at. I just keep running into these sort of things and wonder if I'm even going to learn anything effective that can't be better learned somewhere else.';

'>>184395
>another powerless fart into nowhere
LMAO at this nigger that first was like
>yeah kata certainly teach you le principles and le concepts
and then for three or four posts saying generic retarded shit like
>YOU ARE NOT A MAN!!!
>YOU ARE NOT A FIGHTER!!!
>STOP SAYING SHIT IN MY KARATE THREAD BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE IT!!!!!';

'>>184348
Because karatekas don't practice their own shit. In every relevant martial art you have variety of drills with increasing difficulty and resistance - from learning sequence of movements to the air to full opponents resistance. In karate 1) you can't drill stuff like this >>183844 in same manner, 2) you don't have competitional rulesets to use these techniques on fully resisting opponent. The only stuff you can drill in this manner are some basic kicks, punches and sweeps that all other martial arts already share. That's why all karate "styles" in competitions boil down to these basic techniques.';

'>>184247
Kickboxing for me and when I get some things done I will probably look into learning some judo.';

'>>184399
i posted a YouTube link to KarateBreakdown earlier in the thread and you can check that. Iain Abernathy has some okay stuff too. but people who apply karate correctly are far and few between, and you'd be effectively trying to revive a dead art. if that appeals to you, then your work will be appreciated by all. if you just want effective combat skills, look elsewhere without a doubt. even ninjutsu will be more readily applicable.';

'>>184405
>admitting you're a trolling faggot
Thanks, at least now we know you're just a shit stirring punk who doesn't even have the experience to know what he's talking about.';

'>>184399
I know a lot of people that are good at karate
I know 100x more that absolutely blow
I can't ever in good faith recommend people go practice karate formally because there's a high probability you'll learn complete shit

What I can do is recommend that you study karate literature because there are a lot of good lessons in there and you can interpret for yourself and find the value you're looking for instead of being forced to adopt some random assholes (likely wrong) interpretation';

'>>184399
Nah you will unironically get more value out of karate by training at a kickboxing gym and the just watching things like Lyoto Machida video series and the Enshin video series etc on u tube than by training at a karate dojo.';

'>>184573
>>admitting you're a trolling faggot
>still not a word about le principles and le concepts
You live in imaginary world. You already said I'm saying karate is shit but when I asked for citation you stuffed your mouth into your ass. Now I'm somehow admitting I'm a troll. No, I'm admitting you are an absolute retard.';

'>>184596
Shit has already been explained, you don't accept anything. Like a toddler stuffing their fingers in their ears. Just fuck off if all you're going to do is be an ignorant jackass unwilling to hear anything. You're having the exact same fucking argument in another thread & your dumbass shit has been answered half a dozen times
>>184567
See, but like a tranny you keep just ignoring any explanation that doesn't validate your stupid opinions. You're purposefully arguing against styles you've obviously never trained & have no fucking clue what you're talking about. The longer you push the issue the more plain it is too see that you're a pathetic lil bitch with nothing to do but pick fights on the slowest blue boards.
Go
Touch
Grass';

'>>184735
>"kata is just shadow boxing" nonsense again
I already answered this shit in previous thread. Kata has nothing to do with shadow boxing. Shadow boxing doesn't need bunkai (for obvious reasons - in boxing you learn techniques and their application first and then drill them; in kata it's vice verase - you learn cringe dance and then try to get out of your imagination how you would apply them; if it was in correct boxing way this cringe shit >>183844 would never exist). Shadow boxing doesn't has techniques that has shit ton of ridiculous transcripts but somehow this technique is idealized version for each transcript. In shadow boxing you don't freeze like retard in the middle of a punch. Finally, there is no shadow boxing championships, because shadowboxing is actually a usefull tool in training, and the only thing that can strengthen interest in kata are kata championships. Without kata champioships kata are useless.';

'>>184353
smith's fighting IQ?';

'I love how I can see how Hikite is used by looking at old JKA kumite videos. Fuckers just straight up grab a lapel after an exchange and keep punching the dude in the face before sweeping him off the floor then punch him in the face some more.';

'How different is Shorin-ryu from Shotokan? Does cross-training to Shorin-ryu improve a Shotokan practitioner?';

'>>185052
A little bit different in technique and philosophy.
Both shotokan and shorin-ryu come from Shuri-te but shotokan can be described as the "japanese" version of shorin-ryu.
Shorin has a more natural stance, quicker movements and overall a more "fluid" feel. It lacks concepts of Budo, such as ikken hissatsu, and also lacks modern shotokan developments (complicated high kicks or weird stances) making their approach to kumite very different than shotokan's.
In picrel you can watch the diference in early shotokan ,that was basically shorin, from Funakoshi's kōkutsu dachi and his son's kōkutsu dachi after more development in shotokan that looks more like shotokan today.
Studying shorin can make someone who knows shotokan see the deeper roots of shotokan and improve his perspective on his karate.';

'I only train sport/modern shotokan and I'm not used to sparring and being hit for real.
There is a kyokushin dojo available so I think train there for a while would help me, I know the no punch to the face rule its awkward but at least they fight for real (also I want to learn low kicks).
There is also a kickboxing gym but the kyokushin classes are longer and start earlier (and are more intense probably).';

'>>185064
Choose kickboxing over kyokushin, kyukoshin fighting style and sport shotokan fighting style differ drastically. You can utilize more things from your style in kickboxing';

'>>185064
>>185080
Depends if he is kick heavy kyokushin will be easier to adapt to because he wont have to deal with boxing. I'd say if the kickboxing gym is fight-oriented it would be better for what he is looking for, but will also likely be more expensive. If its fitness oriented the kyokushin place is probably more useful for what he wants lol. I actualy did shotokan as a child and kickboxing as a teenager and am doing kyokushin now because its like half the cost of the mma gyms around me. I don't even like to do kata.';

'>>184752
Yes you are right. If anything kata are a cruder more primitive thing that is meant to serve the role of shadowboxing in karate while also teaching multiple students basics at once, but due to the hierarchical nature of the society that developed them they have stagnated. Another thing is on Okinawa I believe they spent many years thinking of and practicing one kata, so the more long haul larpy way in which bunkai is taught might make more sense vs modern Japanese karate where kata is more like a collection of dances. Also on kata vs shadowboxing comparison imagine if boxers competed to see who has prettier shadow boxing lol.';

'>>181554
>ITT: Cobra Kai vs Miyagi-Do
If any of you really practiced, anything.';

'What do ye guys think of "Nippon Kempo"? I've only seen Shorinji Kempo before, but this looks like a more straightforward and less religion and stuff version of it.';

'>>185080
Kyokushin looks more appealing and can help me to understand techniques, kickboxing its more practical but I don't want to deviate too much from karate.
>>185157
I really want to learn low kicks and Kyokushin way of punching.';

'undefined';

'>>185215
When they started to use hand wraps?
This is strange for a japanese martial art.';

'SNEED';

'>>185589
Nippon Kempo was made in the 1930s. They're using old school gloves and even wearing armor from Kendo and an umpire's helmet. Probably got the idea from Bogutsuki karate kumite. They incorporate Japanese Jutjutsu techniques. They're basically like Kudo.';

'>>185059
>Lower stances
So that's why I'm still getting told by my sensei to fix my stances when doing kata.';

'Shotokan should teach its throws.';

'>>181560
martial art created in the past hundred years don't call yourself "the original mixed martial art" challenge (impossible)';

'>>186225
cringe';

'>>182755
>>182757
>>183508
Update:
I went to the dojo and it was great. It was everything I had hoped for. The senior instructor was very open about it being traditional, strictly non-tournament karate. There's shitloads to learn, there's a high ratio of teachers to students, they're friendly, jovial people, got to have another talk with the senior instructor at the end, the fucking works. I loved it. I'm definitely going back.';

'>>186274
You don't want see sick pile drivers in Olympic karate?! Bitch, YOU'RE the one here being cringe. I can't believe lilly livered, limp-wristed tranny fags who don't appreciate cool shit in combat sports like you exist in this based board.';

'>>186288
Good job, anon!';

'Is there a calendar with kyokushin tournaments and events for this 2024?
Pic not really related.';

'>>186355';

'>>186288
I'm happy for you anon. Traditional dojos are a pretty rare treat.';

'>>186495
>Traditional dojos are a pretty rare treat.
That seems to be the case. There was that one, and maybe one other dojo I found nearby... maybe. Out of probably a dozen or so in my area. And the other one was further away, anyway.';

'Any of you heard of "Kingai-ryu" style karate? I've watched some Matayoshi style kobudo and it was mentioned that the family also practices their own empty hand methods called "Kingai-ryu". Supposedly it's a lot closer to Kung Fu (kinda like Uechi-ryu and Goju-ryu) since the founder went to China and learned a bunch of stuff (which also explains why they have weird weapons and use swords in their Tinbei Rochin instead of short spears in their kobudo). There's like one kata that can be seen in youtube but the rest of their katas or any info about them (kihon, hojo undo) are basically non-existent.';

'Old (okinawan) karate kick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDP4owLW-Lw
why the don't teach this stuff anymore?';

'>>186825
They do, did you read the subtitles/comments? This is what I was talking about when I was trying to explain the usefulness of kata. It's not about timing & distance to the opponent, it's about YOUR timing & distance, meant to drill into what your posture should resemble at the points of contact. This is still taught in multiple schools of karate. Thank you for sharing, this is the strength behind kata, subtle biomechanical differences that make a significant impact on performance. Ancient masters understood this but unfortunately with a lot of the brute athleticism being taught in many sport oriented gyms, this is being lost to time.
>>186288
>>186501
Very glad you found a legit dojo from the sounds of it. Hope you stick with it for a long time.';

'>>186674
"Family" styles are a thing in Japan but they are rare, Motobu-ryu its one of them probably';

'>>186830
>Very glad you found a legit dojo from the sounds of it. Hope you stick with it for a long time.
It sure seems that way. And thanks. I'm stoked.';

'There should be kobudo matches. Use arnis armor and have karatekas smack each other with bo staves. Or do that HEMA MMA where they don in armor and have different weapon classes and specialty to have matches with.
>Have tonfa kumite and kata champions
>Have tekko kumite and kata champions';

'>>187223
This would be awesome.';

'>>186825
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNl1BKfJ4Z8';

'>>187254
so this is the power of kata';

'>>187281
>>187254
Shall I cherry pick a clip of ferguson getting his ass whooped?
>Tony: 25-10
>Katsunori: 24-8
Not the flex you think it is, huh? Why do punks like you play these stupid games? Like your clip means anything? Especially when Tony had way quirkier training methods than just kata & has cut most sparring out. Fighters have good days, fighters have bad days. But you only have faggot days.';

'>>187288
Your shit doesn't work';

'>>187288
>even Tony's way quirkier training methods work better than kata
LMAO, katas are useless';

'>>186825
>why the don't teach this stuff anymore?
Because it's aikido tier shit rubbish where some asslicker students tumble into the air from master's techniques? Ask yourself, if this shit is so deadly and painfull, why don't he just enter muay thai or any other tournament and destroy each opponent with a single low kick?';

'>>187288
You don't fight';

'>>187326
Or even simpler - students aren't used to low kicks';

'>>187288
Lyoto say that you need to do a lot of tweaks in karate to make it work and also that you should do practical drills instead of kata.';

'Any anons here practice or have heard of "Gosoku-ryu" karate? Supposedly it's a mix of Goju-ryu and Shotokan, so kinda like Kyokushin. But what's the difference?';

'>>187769
Kyokushin was more based on Oyama's experience than just a fusion of Goju-ryu and Shotokan';

'>>187325
Think you missed the point bud. Obviously theres more to do with success in the ring than just what they train with. It's about how well someone adapts their kata or whatever other odd stuff fighters do that has some sort or skill carryover. Arguing whether or not kata works is retarded, for some it may, others it may not, depending on how they apply it. How all you tards have gotten this far without mentioning GSP & his kata is beyond me. He credits it extensively to his success & even did a demo in the ring at UFC 129. Kata can work, if you make it work.
>>187388
>instead of kata.
Misquoting. Never said you should replace kata, but yes, you should add to your training. You're not fighting only karatekas so it would be silly to train like you are.
>>187876
>based on Oyama's experience
... So a fusion of Goju & Shoto? I mean, you're saying it's his experience & that's what his experience in training is. Which makes sense, cause that's exactly what it looks like & how it's taught. Three K's. Kihon, largely from goju. Katas, which are typically split between north/south styles. Then kumite, mostly from shoto. Kyokushin is almost a perfect 50/50 split between the two. Probabaly why it's so popular. Theres room for kata casuals & kumite hardcores in it.';

'>>188133
>Kihon, largely from goju
LMAO
>Katas, which are typically split between north/south styles
There is not a single kyokushin karateka who knows anything about kata. "Kyokushin" kata have 0 impact on kyokushin fighting style.
>Then kumite, mostly from shoto.
Oh my god, I have no words.';

'>>188133
If you wrote kyo has shoto kihon (wide stances, "powerfull" moves, punches from hip rotation etc) and goju kumite (closer disctances, no boxing pendulum) it would be still retarded, but much more closer to thruth.';

'>>188147
>>188138
A fuckle google search says you're both retarded & know fuck all. This board is infested with rancid fucking larpers idk why I keep coming here expecting any different.';

'>>188153
>I use google search
>but it is you who is a fucking larper
kek';

'>>188160
Retard.';

'>>188225
>another fart instead of argument
Yeah, google more and tell us how Oyama was killing bulls';

'undefined';

'>>188530
That was nice';

'We did it gang!';

'>>188592
>faggot shit nobody gives a fuck about
Blowjob-jutsu is a fag fad.';

'>>185064
>I only train sport/modern shotokan and I'm not used to sparring and being hit for real.
Is that how bad modern Shotokan is like? The dojo I got to teaches old school Shotokan and it's uncommon to go home without any bruises or be beat up a bit in sparring. We wear chest armor during sparring but that only becomes a an excuse to hit harder with bare fists and feet barring only hits to the head. That didn't even stop me from taking a knife hand to the face during a takedown and a punch to the neck once. You just need to fight better.';

'>>188745
>we have bruises after practices we are so deadly!!!
I'm from Russia and we had a lot of shit karate fighters from old school shotokan practitioners who boasted that they had very tough sparring sessions where they constantly broke each others noses to notorious Koi no takinobori ryu (their "sensei" at one of the seminars cut his shin and sewed it up). All were beaten badly both in sport sparrings and on the streets by regular sport practitioneers.';

'>>188744
didnt read it I guess, thats ok';

'>>188774
>I'm from Russia
Nice larp there, Tyler.';

'>>188783
>fart';

'>>188231
>killing bulls
Killing? No, but lets see you fight a bull pussy.';

'>>188837
>No, but lets see you fight a bull
Not that anon, but lemme just put on my bull killing dogi.';

'>>188745
It can vary from instructor to instructor, my current instructor have a focus for kata and "self-defense" (one-step choreographic moves).';

'>>188852
>kata and "self-defense" (one-step choreographic moves).
Oh nice. I think the reason why we spar hard is because...well sensei's old school. Our sensei learned Shotokan and other stuff during the 60s and became an instructor and a cop in the 70s. It's probably why we have a lot of knife defense practice (both choreographed and "free spar" defense where the knife attacker just relentlessly attacks you and you have to defend yourself with everything you learned BUT must execute the disarming technique) also harder sparring just gives the closest feeling of being in an actual fight. It's fucking fun even with the bruises. Good luck in whatever choice you have between Kyokushin and Kickboxing. I did the same thing before ending up in my current dojo. Try to learn ways to treat injuries yourself. It helps. Dit Da Jow and other liniment helps me in healing bruises and light injuries so I can go back and do it again the next week.';

'>>188837
Don't wanna fight bull pussy but yesterday I fought your momma pussy';

'>>188231
Following the logic that the striker always lost against the grappler, Oyama probably lost against a judo fighter but there is no information about it';

'>>188133
>Then kumite, mostly from shoto.
Kyokushin Kumite is the diametric opposite to shotokan Kumite though';

'>>188875
Explain how. Both Shoto & KK have various levels of intensity for different levels of experience & purpose. KKs version of hard sparring might be a little harder than Shotos but far as curriculum goes it's nearlt the same. I have Mas Oyamas "Essential Karate," and it outlines their levels of sparring & do I need to take pictures?';

'>>188869
>this post
>following any logic
lol';

'>>188951
You are an absolure retard. You don't fight. You have 0 live experience. Your knowledge is only what you can google or read in some meme irrelevant books (inb4 HOW DARE YOU CALL OYAMA BOOKS IRRELEVAN?!?!?!).
Considering your stupid question:
>kyokushin: limited distance control, close distances, heavy on exchanging blows in these close distances
>shotokan: LOT of distance control (much closer to fencing in that regard), therefore boxing style pendulum, threfore more drills related to moving on your legs, almost 0 blows exchanging in close distances';

'>>188975
Mkay butthurt fag. Just go watch, go do. Love how you think my using popular reference tools means I must not have any experience beyond that. Like these references aren't drawn from & made from real experiences. You're just a butthurt larper. Go watch hard shoto sparing, hard kk sparring. Look for the similarities instead of hyper focusing on nearly non-existent differences. Oyama himself wouldn't make these arguments you fucking tard.';

'>>188857
My previous instructor was also "old school" but he prefer to teach just the sport, it's what most teach now.';

'Hojo Undo should be a thing again in dojos even in sports oriented schools.';

'>>188817
Literal 12 year old faggot';

'Any of you ever tried any form of White Crane boxing? How does it compare to your style of Karate?';

'>>182854
That's actually really cool';

'>>189559
>shart';

'>>188951
It's trying to teach something entirely different, people train for the rulesets they compete in that's just inevitable. I've trained with both Kyokushin (offshoot but very similar) and Shotokan guys (and in a full contact context - I.E. shotokan guys who were doing MMA) and they fight completely differently.

I've even trained with a Shotokan blackbelt who had just started cross training in said Kyokushin offshoot and this is how I'd describe Shotokan guys:

They have very strong straights (reverse punches), they keep their hands pretty low. They are quick and move confidently and fluidly in and out. None of the ones I sparred with were chumps. They have very quick kicks that favour control over power*.

In the clinch they don't know what to do at first. The blackbelt very quickly went from being lost there (it was his first times) to hitting me with foot sweeps all the time. But I can't wrestle for shit, guys who can watch out for the sweeps would maul them there.

Their side to side movement is *much* worse. I could walk down this Shoto guy who trained w/ me in MMA all the time. He was very fast and a brilliant kicker but the awareness of when he was boxed in wasn't there. Kyokushin guys don't have this problem as much since they stand more square on and are super aggressive and don't give ground at all.

*have you ever sparred with a guy who could high kick you lightly? Just like spanking your ears with your foot. it was weird asf.

Kyokushin (and offshoots whatever) don't throw really strong single punches they just batter you with combinations. Not combinations of light punches - Kyokushin punches are 10x as hard as they look, but just more about attrition than big single shots. They also throw leg kicks after fucking everything, there's no cooldown, they have some murderous counter kickers who will wait for you to do anything and kick your leg because anything you do aside from being ready to check leaves your legs kickable. (continued-)';

'>>189612
Kyokushin guys stand more square on so their in-out movements aren't as dramatic. Some sort of blitz in. They have some fucking weird ass combinations because it's much harder to hit the body if you can't target the head at all, so they'll throw like uppercuts and overhands to the body alternating, a really weird wide hook to land on the ribs, they'll punch the arms really hard to try and slow down your punches.

They're not perfectionists like Shotokan guys, it always looks a bit sloppier but it's because they're a lot more active. They take their conditioning more seriously than anywhere I've been (in MMA places I guess you would mainly do your conditioning outside of class). I'm not saying Shotokan guys are unfit, but Kyokushin guys have better cardio and their style is more cardio intensive.

Their hands are lower than in boxing let alone muay Thai, but higher than Shotokan. Some Shotokan guys will borderline shoot from the hip whereas Kyokushin guys are mainly just trying to get the elbows down there to protect the ribs; it's basically hands low for punching vs hands not quite as low mainly for defence. Also if you punch the body a lot you're going to lower your hands a bit more inevitably. Kyokushin senseis will go on about higher hands to balance this out and because they don't want people going in with super low hands during tournaments and getting blown out by head kicks.';

'>>189615
>MMA do their conditioning outside their class
lol, lmao sweet summer child. I think Kyokushin is probably the top of conditioning from a pure Karate standpoint but nothing tops Wrestling in terms of conditioning. I never did a sport outside of Wrestling that drains everything out of you like that sport.
Karate purest strength after years of dabbling in all sorts of Martial Arts lies for me in one thing: its Martial Factor/Kata. I learned a lot later in life then i would want to care to admit that Kata is the perfect counter balance to sparring. I still cant explain 100% why it helps me fight better then just when i did pure sparring but for me atleast, it helped me to build "pathways" in fighting.';

'>>190002
I was talking about conditioning outside of just doing tons of sparring/rounds whatever. I have done grappling, I know it's really tiring. I'm purely talking about doing tons of calisthenics/running.';

'Where I can find kyokushin exercises?
Not warm-up, the thing they do as part of belt testing';

'>>190179
Beat the shit out of each other?';

'>>190179
You mean their katas, conditioning exercises? What exactly?
Anyway, Mas Oyama wrote a book about it decades ago. Maybe that has what you're after.';

'>>190179
Look at Katas online and practice them, once you've learned a kata then look into the bunkai of the kata.';

'I promoted myself to black belt';

'>>190274
Very nice anon, be sure to record your performances at the next nationals and post it here.';

'>>190276
I wont be competing, I believe competition goes against the karate way and I'm qualified to say as much now that I'm a black belt';

'>>190282
>In the practice of martial arts, in my opinion, the technique itself is not so important as how you practice it. What does the training process consist of, because it is your “way of the warrior”. This is especially important for traditional systems, in my opinion. That's why, for example, Masutatsu Oyama is a great man - his karate is a real martial art. Despite the restrictions in the rules. And Gracie Jiu-Jitsu too.
>It always seemed to me that without fights, without confrontation on the mat, without competitions this is not a real martial art. And the point is not that the athletes are strong and the traditions are weak. It's about your personality and its transformation during training. Without fights and competitions, this is self-deception. Only your self-esteem is transformed.

This is from someone who trained wing chun for 15 years, travelled to China multiple times to learn from the original source, tried to develop wing chun competitions in Russia so wing chun practitioners could be competitive with atheletes of other striking martial arts, hit the wall of misunderstanding of people like and turned to BJJ';

'>>190333
>of people like
*of people like you';

'>>190333
Well, he's retarded & missed the point of martial arts. If it is a hard style, you need no more than the occasional hard sparring or barring that some extreme conditioning, some kind of passage of pain that lends to your grit. If it is a soft style, it was never meant for fighting another person. But he is factually wrong & many martial arts were not made for & are philosophically opposed to competition. Seeking fame, public recognition at all, or any money for the demonstration of martial arts, well, it makes you nothing more than a violent whore.';

'>>190274
Congrats, anon';

'>>190338
>many martial arts were not made for
They were made for imagining you are killing dragons by performing magical dances?';

'>>190042
MMA does most of its conditioning in class, atleast from my expierence. Depends on how competitve the place is though';

'>>190338
Man, I understand what image of martial arts you have, but how dancing in white pajamas with colored belts and screaming japanese words relates to it? You don't learn how to shoot, you don't learn how to use shocker or spray, you don't even train in regular clothes and boots.
>many martial arts were not made for
Geometry was made to measure lands, now it is completely different thing. Particular martial art has many creators that had different goals in creating and developing them, moreover, they can declare certain goals in their books and speeches, but in reality wanted to achieve others (think about Oyama who wanted Kyokushin to become Olympic sport).
>philosophically opposed to competition
This is just senseless mix of words
>Seeking fame, public recognition at all, or any money for the demonstration of martial arts
No one brought this up for discussion.';

'>>190356
>words
Fag';

'>>190369
>fart';

'>>190333
Seems to conflate lively practice with the need for competition
Since he used the gracies as an example so will I. They rose to prominence by beating up mostly untrained people or differently trained people in rules they weren't familiar with
That's just ego stroking really. Becoming a master of jiujitsu happens during the thousands of hours in the dojo with your training partners
Not the 10 minutes against your adversary every once in a while';

'>>190405
>Since he used the gracies as an example so will I. They rose to prominence by beating up mostly untrained people or differently trained people in rules they weren't familiar with
LMAO and who did Oyama beat? The point is Oyama and Gracie promoted their arts as something that can be tested against other fighters from both same or other styles';

'>>190406
oyama has even fewer accolaides than the gracies
although whenever possible they put their thumb on the scale to give themselves the advantage I don't think they blatantly lied about their abilities the way oyama did with his fake bull video for example
and every time someone brings up kyokushin almost immediately someone chimes in to say "kyokushin is legit because a lifetime ago some randos won 2/3 sparring matches against some other randos that did muay thai"
and that's supposed to cement the legacy as being an elite fighting style. Really the only people kyokushin practitioners fight are other kyokushin practitioners. As lame and gay as BJJ culture is you'll see them participate in bjj competitions as well as MMA fights. but it's rare to see kyokushin step outside of its bubble.
so he's a poor role model is what I'm getting at';

'>>190413
>I don't think they blatantly lied about their abilities the way oyama did with his fake bull video for example
Rickson Gracie says he has a 500-0 record.

>"kyokushin is legit because a lifetime ago some randos won 2/3 sparring matches against some other randos that did muay thai"
Elite kickboxers with karate backgrounds are a dime-a-dozen in modern kickboxing.';

'>>190421
counting sparring wins in your record is gay as hell but way less egregious than getting a film crew to stage a fake video where you karate chop the horn off a bull';

'>>190421
>Rickson Gracie says he has a 500-0 record.
Homosexual lies';

'>>190423
His own Daddy told on him because he was tired of his bullshit lies. Now you can get a BB certificate in Rickson JJ online for a few hundred bucks. He's a faggot fucking bullshido piece of shit.
>>190413
>Really the only people kyokushin practitioners fight are other kyokushin practitioners
That is total fucking bullshit. What about GSP dipshit? There are plenty of fighters with kyokushin karate.';

'>>190413
>kyokushin is legit because a lifetime ago some randos won 2/3 sparring matches against some other randos that did muay thai"
>and that's supposed to cement the legacy as being an elite fighting style. Really the only people kyokushin practitioners fight are other kyokushin practitioners. As lame and gay as BJJ culture is you'll see them participate in bjj competitions as well as MMA fights. but it's rare to see kyokushin step outside of its bubble.

This is bullshit lol, Kyokushin produces more combat sports athletes than any other TMA except BJJ. They all just go into kickboxing. K-1 was started by Seidokaikan guys.

Oyama may have faked some stuff but the martial art he founded is 100% real';

'>>190425
>What about GSP
another outlier example, guy was active around 2006 and then who came after?';

'It's a long stretch but does anyone here know the original kicks of karate?
I'm talking about the karate around Itosu Anko so 1900s or so before the introduction to mainland Japan. I'm pretty shure yoko-geri is not in that group but I'm unsure about mawashi-geri or ushiro-geri.';

'>>191262
I think someone told me mawashi came from french savate instructors that were training the jap army. Timeline seems a bit wonky for that but I don't know enough to say it didn't happen.';

'>>186288
>>186355
>>186830
Second Update:
It's been about six weeks and I've gone every week since I started. I've started going twice a week (they only hold two classes for juniors/beginners each week). I'm still bamboozled by most of the stuff we go through at this stage. But I'm loving it. Thanks again for your input on this. Maybe I'll see you guys in one of the future threads.';

'>>184279
There was some article years ago were Jesse Enkamp claimed that there is some influence coming from Muay Thai but personally i doubt the two are connected in any meanigful way. Jesse suggests that the clinch work in okinawan styles stems directly from MT (along with Knee and Elbows ofc) but besides some connection points i would say this stems more from a direct mix of White Crane and Tegumi. People always try to desperatley connect the two bc MT is seen as the superior Martial Art-but like with almost all Martial Arts (looking at you Aikido and Systema) non contact sparring styles like most Kung Fu and Karate styles have their strength in their immense attention to detail (and some other stuff that you just cant get with average full contact styles). Although modern Karate biggest flaw is the lack of grappling in Kata application (or Kata application/Bunkai not being a thing in genral) in my opinion next to the lack of sparring.

The article in question:https://www.karatebyjesse.com/siam-discovering-karates-forgotten-source-pt-1/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6i1zksr30M';

'>>191320
Thanks for that article. I'll read it. Wouldn't it be more on Muay Boran rather than Muay Thai since MB is a lot older?
>Aikido is shit
Aikido scares me. In the dojo I go to since we both practice both old school JKA-style Shotokan and Judo, there's a dude there who did more Judo and also practice A LOT of "Combat Aikido" before taking up Karate. Also he's a cop who had to use what he learned in his line of work many times. Dude has no fucking hesitation using his "soft" skills in sparring. Soft skills, leg sweeps and takedowns are his forte. It's horrifying getting close to him. Dude's uke's already feel like dropping a pile of bricks into your arms then there's the near instantaneous throw/takedown + joint lock (joint locks and throws he uses during self-defense partner practice). It's fucking horrifying.';

'>>191320
according to joe rogan muay thai invented kicks to the legs and karate didn't start doing it until they saw it in MMA because he's the most poorly informed "expert" on the subject';

'>>191341
Nobody takes karate seriously';

'>>191347
they should because karate is what single handedly built the entire martial arts industry

it was the first to ever go mainstream and actually develop an economy around it
karate paved the way for all these other niche activities to become viable businesses and that's just the facts';

'>>191347
In my expierence, its mostly full contact zealots (aka anything besides full contact is crap) that think like this. Or noobs';

'>>191341
Joe Rogan might be the single worst & dumbest thing to ever happen to the martial arts community. Every MMA/BJJ fag wants to bathe in his jizz & every one of his opinions are the most casual fag shit ever.';

'>>191335
the sad norm for aikido is that its practiced extremely unrealistic. Unlike tma styles that focus on striking, a grapplng based style that has no contact sparring is just quarter cooked at best. Your dude seems to have done one of the few aikido styles that allows sparring. Aikido as a style immediatley wins quality once sparring is allowed. The sad reality though is that most of the aikido world wide is unrealistic, cultisih with a big side of delusion on top.';

'>>191348
>they should because karate is what single handedly built the entire martial arts industry
It was judo. Judo was exotic new hot shit in the 60s everyone was caring about in Europe. Read Jon Bluming memories book. Karate came after that';

'>>191426
>in the 60s
I just checked his book and it was even 50s';

'>>191426
no way, blood sport, road house, karate kid, all the bruce lee shit
that's what got people into martial arts and everyone gravitated to karate because they wanted to do them kicks
if judo was popular then bjj never would've been. The reason bjj caught on is most people never saw anything like it before so it had the power of novelty on its side. Huh? wrestling with the karate uniform on? so weird!
and thanks to everyones fascination with karate we have treasures like this now with scam artists trying to profit off it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiBdPNmdVQM

good rule of thumb, which ever industry has the most fraud is the one that's the most popular';

'>>191262
Probably just front kick (with conditioned toes), a low side kick to the joints and a kick with closed toes to the genitals';

'>>190425
I'm no Gracie worshiper but Rickson is the real deal. He's an absolute wizard on the ground and he could submit every single one of us in this board throughout the day. I do recall hearing Helio scoff at his son's claims too.

That being said, yeah it's kinda sad how some of the Gracies are diluting the integrity of their schools by doing black belt factory crap.';

'>>191320
The Japanese and Okinawans did trade with the Siamese. Especially in the 1600s during the hey-day of the Red Seal ships of the Tokugawa Shogunate. And Japanese ronin served as mercenaries in Thailand like Yamada Nagamasa. So it's not far-fetched that there might have been some cross-pollination with Indochinese boxing styles and Okinawan unarmed fighting.

The Karate-Muay Thai connection was also touched upon by Bruce Haines in his book, Karate's History & Traditions. So others have noted the possibility. The late Donn Draegar's Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts also listed Filipino and Near Eastern influences to Okinawan martial arts along with Chinese and Thai.

Plus we all the Karate vs Muay Thai exchanges in the 1950's and 1960's. Besides the famous ones that Masutatsu Oyama's students did, there was an earlier one in the 1950's with a guy named Kenki Michiaki faced a Nak Muay. The karateka had no answer to the power kicks and clinching of the Thai boxer. Though I'd argue a traditional Okinawan stylists (not Japanese karate) might have done better because some of the Okinawan karate/kenpo guys condition themselves and kick with shin and foot. Not to mention Okinawan karate (unlike Japanese karate and the offshoots of Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do) actually focused on kicks BELOW the waist because they felt kicks to the legs and sweeps were more conductive in a street fight than a high kick which could expose the groin to attack.';

'>>184393
I love that you posted a pic of Choki Motobu. He's the greatest pioneer of karate in my opinion. One of his disciples, Tatsuo Yamada incorporated Muay Thai in his dojo; the first karate school to officially do so. Motobu advocated real fighting application instead of rehearsed choreography.';

'>>188133
Kyokushin was Goju and Shotokan with influence from Western boxing, Judo, Daito ryu Aikijutsu, Muay Thai, and I suspect Chen Taijiquan. So there's common ancestry but the way it was set up and executed is different.';

'>>189612
>>189615
I trained under a former Enshin stylist (which derived from Kyokushin) who was also my Muay Thai coach. The biggest stumbling block that I got from a Shotokan karateka I once sparred with is him executing a chudan tsuki and mentally relax while I just shrug it off and he got shocked when I countered and swept him.

Meanwhile I trained with 2 Albanian dudes from my college who were Kyokushin. Holy fuck, you were spot-on. These guys were like brick walls. And their sense of timing and distance was impeccable. And they also boxed too so they knew how to keep their hands up and guarded against strikes to the face. They were fun as fuck to have a go with.';

'>>191262
Low kicks that they also did with foot sweeps/trips. The highest kicks they did were body kicks which were usually snapping front kicks via heel, ball, or toes.

>>191485
These and they also did stamps (from the Chinese influence) as well as knees.';

'>>191503
>focused on kicks BELOW the waist because they felt kicks to the legs and sweeps were more conductive in a street fight than a high kick which could expose the groin to attack
Having never felt comfotable kicking higher than the waist for these exact reasons, I feel a little vindicated. Kicking higher than the waist just feels like another skill that has underperforming ROI. When it works it's quite spectacular, but most of the time it doesn't, and when it fails it leaves you more vulnerable than any other time while still standing.';

'>>191511
High kicks are great in combative sport format. You wear a protective cup and there's rules to the fight.

But in a situation where your life is at risk, I would not do a high kick. The only kicks I would perform in a street fight (if I can't retreat and have no choice) are Muay cut kicks to the thigh because if the opponent doesn't know how to check, then game over. Otherwise, I'll do savate-style kicks to the gut like a chasse or if I'm a real dick, an oblique to the kneecap.';

'>>191501
I dunno, things have changed a lot and if you look at gracie footage from the 90s you can see they're like decent blue to meh purple belt level grapplers by today's standards';

'>>191513
True. The skill level is much higher nowadays because of the expansion of BJJ globally and more techniques from other grappling (judo, catch, collegiate, sambo, etc.) being incorporated.

Still, a lot of stellar Jiu-Jitieros have commented how completely helpless Rickson made them feel. I don't think that's faint praise or them being nice. The only one that was able to beat Rickson consistently was the late Rolls. Rickson once said the first time he was able to tap out Rolls in practice was the greatest elation he ever felt and it opened up new paths for his development.';

'>>191512
>great in combative sport format
Agreed, but I am not interested in competeing.
>>191512
>oblique to the kneecap, chasses to gut
Welp, call me big richard then cause those are my go to in training.';

'>>191505
>Kyokushin was Goju and Shotokan
It was not. It never was, and it is not now.';

'>>191513
>progress exists
wow, shocking';

'>>191533
What are you on about? Oyama trained in shotokan and Goju, there's kata and techniques from both';

'>>191541
>kata
Has absolutely 0 influence on Kyokushin fighting style.
>techniques
Wow, they all have punches and kicks. Similarities end right here
>Oyama trained in shotokan and Goju
And invented his own style that has no relation to them, except Kyokushin contains "their" katas, but since kata has 0 influence on kyokushin fighting style it doesn't matter anyway. Early Kyokushin was heavy on full contact sparring first and foremost, it wasn't studied like "Look, we have this kata, let use technique from it in sparrings".
If you think otherwise, please tell what similarities there are between Kyokushin and Shotokan and between Kyokushin and Goju. "B-but Oyama trained Goju and Shotokan" and "They all have punches and kicks" is not pointing to similarities.';

'>>191574
He didn't invent everything. Sanchin is in loads of older styles, then there's all the other katas that were taken. Not many of them are Oyama's. Ok karate is basically karate everywhere but to say kyokushin is not heavily influenced by goju and shotokan is stupid. The syllabus we use has loads of old weird shit in it, the pad work and sparring might not use most of it but it's there';

'>>191574
On the trad side kyokushin has knees, elbows, palm strikes, a few arm locks. I think there's some basic throws but we don't have mats. There's alot of stuff that's not used in sparring but it's still there in marching and pad work. I like my class, it's trad in alot of ways but there's a good kickboxing side as one blackbelt is well into his muy thai. Banging out tunes';

'>>191574
A lot of the kicking style is shared between karate styles. There are some differences but general similarities; karate kicks have more of a chamber and so have more control at the expense of pure power.';

'I know we're pretty much all in agreement that goju is the ultimate form of karate
And that American goju in particular is the cream of the crop because as we know, west is best
But it has me wondering how much of the identifiable karate features can you remove before it stops being karate? Or is there no limit to it?

Strip away the obvious, the gis, the belts, the kata, these are all the asthetic everyone thinks of but also simply resulting from commercialization
Go back to the beginning and it's just some guys in shorts working out on a beach

What does karate even mean at this point?
Can someone just make up a bunch of kata, throw on a gi and say this is my style of karate
And is that more legitimate than guys wearing regular modern athletic clothes working the mitts and drilling techniques and now that isn't legitimate karate?';

'>>191782
>I know we're pretty much all in agreement that goju is the ultimate form of karate
This agreement exists only among goju guys. They think their style is somehow oldest and somehow combines striking and grappling despite they can't show this on any decent competitions. Goju guys don't have their Georges St-Pierre or Lyoto Machida or Alexander Volkov. I saw free sparrings of goju black belts and it is always some village hand swings if head punching allowed or bad kyokushin if not allowed at best
>b-but we hit stones and walk with vases
kek';

'>>191813
>Goju guys don't have their Georges St-Pierre or Lyoto Machida or Alexander Volkov.
Robert Whittaker';

'>>191842
He did styleless WKF karate. There is countless schools labeled shotokan, fudokan, shito-ryu, wado-ryu, goju-ryu that do the same thing because they train for WKF competitions which is point based jumpy oi zuki competitions. This style Robert Whittaker demonstrates in MMA.';

'>>191782
>What does karate even mean at this point?
Traditional lineage
>Can someone just make up a bunch of kata and say this is my style of karate
No, since this bunch of kata are not part of tradition';

'>>191945
Obviously he can't use goju in its purest form because MMA fights are simply hard contact sparring, not death matches with killing intent';

'>>192284
>not death matches with killing intent
In every inter-style fight it was proven that le deadly techniques don't work for shit';

'>>192308
the mistake you're making is thinking about it in terms of a martial artist vs another martial artist
when someone has a high fight power themselves they will be resistant to finishing techniques in a way normal hooligans will not be';

'>>192284
He can't use goju because all he trained in karate was oi zuki with boxing style pendulum which is 50% of WKF sparring drills. He demonstrates it in MMA perfectly. Even hated by everyone WKF can create decent fighting style. What can't create fighting style is some meme dances (katas) and walking with vases
>not death matches with killing intent
LMAO. How many death matches with killing intent average goju practitioner participates in?';

'>>192284
Also, why can't he use Kakie (sticky hands) in MMA?';

'>>192338
>Even hated by everyone WKF can create decent fighting style
If kyokushinfags always get BTFO by kickboxers now imagine with WKF guys';

'>>192339
The essence of karate is expressed through the fortification of the hands to train them to become weapons themselves
The requirement of using gloves is akin to someone using a sword inside the sheath
And the prohibition of targeting vulnerable areas such as the eyes, the throat, the groin, the spine (and I'm not saying this should be allowed, there's a reason it's not appropriate for sport practice) this doesn't allow karate to flourish with its distinct identity intact';

'>>191591
Ever read This is Karate that Masutatsu Oyama wrote? It actually had a section about the importance of ground-fighting. Oyama was well aware of the versatility of unarmed fighting.';

'>>192380
1. There is Bare Knuckle Boxing. Why don't goju ryu practitioners not enter competitions and destroy them all with their fortified hands?
2. So goju ryu gives you only things that can't be tested in free sparrings. Then it's useless and aikido tier.';

'>>192618
>Why don't goju ryu practitioners not enter competitions and destroy them all with their fortified hands?
For what purpose? Something has to be wrong with you if you want to hurt people
And why? For the entertainment of drunk buffoons?
For a measly prize not worth anywhere near the effort it took to get it?

Fighters are real idiots';

'>>192634
Don't bother. Board is flooded with tards & larpers that can't fathom practicing martial arts but not wanting to hurt people or whore yourself out for a stupidly slim chance at fame/fortune. The spirit of martial arts is non-existent here or in mainstream combat sports. I unironically enjoy point matches more than the homoerotic blood sports shoved in our faces.';

'>>192634
>For what purpose?
To know if your magical sticky hands work or is it just a fantasy.

>>192635
>Don't bother. Board is flooded with tards & larpers that can't fathom practicing martial arts but not wanting to hurt people or whore yourself out for a stupidly slim chance at fame/fortune. The spirit of martial arts is non-existent here or in mainstream combat sports. I unironically enjoy point matches more than the homoerotic blood sports shoved in our faces.
>BUT MUH MOTOBU CHOKI, THE MOST BASED KARATE FIGHTER
LMAO. Yeah, Eric Higaonna who has several MMA fights is complete fucking idiot, ok';

'>>192636
>magical sticky hands
what are you talking about?';

'>>192380
>muh gloves stop effectivness
Classical Goju tard. Would really help your case if you just accepted that Goju ryu is not some magical all powerful style that you try to elavate on the most niche part of a korean basking weaving forum';

'>>192758
it's typical of people who cant do something to say something doesnt work
"I can't use my hands the way these karate practitioners do so it must not be real"
same energy as the guys that would "bro I'd just stand up if a grappler tried to take me down. I just see red bro, I just go blank and bodies start dropping bro"';

'>>192380
>And the prohibition of targeting vulnerable areas such as the eyes, the throat, the groin, the spine
>the spine
Targeting the spine isn't real. Blows to the back being illegal are to prevent freak accidents you cannot reliably damage it. See the early ufc where it was allowed no one had spinal injuries.';

'>>192827
>you cannot reliably damage it
Well you can't damage it to the point of ending a fight, but it is in the days afterwards that are really sketchy. Any swelling will cause a great deal of damage around the spine. It is best left out of combat sports. It isn't going to win a fight, but it might end a guys career and ruin their life.';

'>>192818
>I can't use my hands the way these karate practitioners do
They also can't. Years of learning kakie (sticky hands) and it doesn't work. Years of learning shit like this (which is completely legal in grappling competitions) and it doesn't work.';

'>>192831
>>192818
>>192758
>>192380
Listen you can effectively turn your hands into weapons, but there is a requirement and steep cost to do so that very few practitioners do these days. You will have to break your hands repeatedly and in very specific ways. You aren't going to be able to write or use a fork ever again. Your hands will be riddled with arthritis and be in constant pain. You beat and break your hands and wrist until they essentially become one single bone. You can't even fully make a fist. No one anymore is willing to make the sacrifice. No one willingly breaks their fingers, tapes them up, and continues training anymore.';

'>>192818
>>192834
>i cant use gloves effectively with my karate so gloves are hampering my style
you cant be fucking serious. This has nothing to do with Karate, sticky hands or whatever, if you think gloves stop you from using techniques you are on some special bullshido koolaid';

'>>192834
Not that anon, but proper Chinese martial arts instructors know how to condition your hands properly and advocate the use of medicine. But it's a gradual process and in tiny increments.Tszyu does fist hardening training and uses traditional medicine to ensure none of the fucked up shit like that in pic rel.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVTbyV40Kzk&t=115s
Even Morio Higaonna uses the traditional medicine for his hand conditioning as seen in this documentary.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVCaqjkV3VM&t=46s
I use Zheng Gu Shui after bare knuckle bag practice. I wonder why most karate practitioners and dojos not know the use of medicine is important in conditioning exercises?';

'>>192827
Karate is the only martial art to have its techniques outright banned in MMA
The downward elbow strikes, attacks to the throat and spine (the back of the neck is part of the spine), the head stomp

The cope is all inconsistent double speak
That stuff doesn't work
But also
It's too dangerous for competitions
But also
Heh too dedly4u lol
But also
Yeah no seriously though don't do that stuff';

'Man Kyokushin seems like fun, I wish I had a dojo near me. I feel like learning to punch bare knuckle is a good skill to learn.';

'>>192834
>Listen you can effectively turn your hands into weapons, but there is a requirement and steep cost to do so that very few practitioners do these days
Yeah, nowadays only gojutards are able to gradually master skills. In other sports people usually jump in and can immediately perform techniques of the highest level. I did my first iron cross after two weeks of training gymnastics for example
>No one willingly breaks their fingers, tapes them up, and continues training anymore.
lol
>>192634
I wonder why gojutards always pretend to be le hecking wisemen that hate to hurt people and dislike le stupid blood sports, but then turns out the only techniques they learn are some testicle tearings and spine breaks? How does it get along in their heads?
>>181560
>he wanted his students to compete in competitions therefore he had to strip away some of the more dangerous techniques found in Goju to create Kyokushin which by comparison is much safer to use in a sport setting. Similar to how Kano needed to modify battlefield jujitsu into judo.
That's bullshit, Kano just found out that "safe" teqhniques (which are not always safe, would you call a choke safe?) that you can perform in free sparrings are much more effective then some cringy meme teqhniques like finger pulls that you can't realy train. That's why on challenges in 1880's early judokas were able to use the same throws in a row agaist jiu jitsu practitioners again and again';

'>>192867
In the early "no holds barred" UFC every karate practitioner got beaten in the first minute.';

'>>192957
A Ninjitsu guy won UFC 3.';

'>>192957
this is a low tier argument
everyone always says look at this incredible gracie jiujitsu, it proved itself to be the best
how does 1 random asshole winning against 3 other random assholes suddenly collectively prove it's the best?

karate is the basis for all modern striking and that isn't even disputable
unless you're specifically practicing muay thai any kickboxing you learn is karate. Simple fact really';

'>>192978
>karate is the basis for all modern striking
It's boxing
>unless you're specifically practicing muay thai any kickboxing you learn is karate
Show jodan mawashi geri in kata';

'>>192996
>Show jodan mawashi geri in kata
Even low kicks were unknown to kyokushin practitioners before their sparrings with thai fighters';

'>>192997
/xs/ never disappoints. Always the worst takes with the dumbest statements';

'>>193003
Its OK statement. Royama destroyed everyone on competitions with low kick. Karate practitioneers didn't know about low kick before thai fights and didn't use it before Royama wins. Modern leg kicking derived from competitional rusets, not from katas and from karate itself.';

'>>193005
>rusets
*rulesets';

'>>193005
Low kicks were not fucking unknown, they werent part of the regular training regime then. big difference.';

'>>193009
>I k-know every technique in the world... I just don't train them
cool story bro, low kicks still derived in modern striking not from karate';

'>>193003
There is no a single mention of low kick in 1973 edition of Oyama's "This is Karate".';

'>>192997
>>193005
>>193009
>>193013
I've actually extensively researched this. Okinawan kicks (as well as stomps and trips) were primarily below-the-waist. The question isn't if they were low; it's that if they used the shin as the point of contact. Goju-ryu utilizes a lot of low kicks and sweeps; something which you can see in Irikumi format. Uechi Ryu also does low kicks aimed at thighs and calves in their drills.

The 1964 Kyokushin vs MT challenge match made Oyama and Kurosaki aware of how shin conditioning was vital and how to check the Muay cut kick. And in turn, it popularized it amongst Japanese/Okinawan schools via Kyokushin as well as early Japanese Kickboxing.

From my research, it's a bit of a puzzle. The Okinawans conditioned toes when kicking and I've seen pictures and footage of Okinawan instructors kicking to the thigh with what looks to be the shin (or possibly the calf). So they had low kicks via the shin, but it wasn't wide-spread compared to the chambered style of kicks that utilized ball, instep, and heel. Even toe kicks aren't that well known outside of Okinawa if you go to Japanese karate/kenpo dojos. The Korean schools of TKD and Tang Soo Do that derived from karate (their exposure was primarily Shotokan, Shudokan, and Shito Ryu) do not utilize low kicks and toe kicks like the Okinawans did.

Outside of Japan, Oyama's Kyokushin schools didn't extensively teach the low kick up until the early 70's which was at the time of the 1st world tournament and Royama and others were destroying the non-Japanese (except for Shigeru Oyama's top students like Willie Williams, Charles Martin, Oliver William because they were familiar with leg conditioning). Even Lucien Carbin, one of the great pioneers of Kyokushin, Kickboxing and Muay Thai in the Netherlands didn't utilize low kicks until Jan Plas returned from Japan (where he trained at Kurosaki's Mejiro Gym) and learned Muay-style cut kicks.';

'>>193017
1973 was the US publication date of This is Karate. 1965 was the original date in Japan.

Akio Fujihira and Tadashi Nakamura would not have been able to fight if they didn't know how to receive low kicks. Oyama's school had his guys prepare extensively with protective gear while going full out. There are accounts of students wrapping towels around their hands and punching each other during kumite. So it's evident that Oyama did pick up on doing low kicks via his Goju training, otherwise his guys would've been limping to the ground after receiving a cut kick. In fact, if you look at Fujihira's fight footage in the MT challenge, the first attack he initiates is a low kick.

You can see it at 1:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZogHW2AWcCk

What I believe is that shins weren't properly conditioned in most karate/kenpo dojos outside of a handful that did old school body strengthening and training regimens. The MT challenge proved that needed to be addressed and that's why the Kyokushin guys are enthusiastic about delivering powerful cut kicks to the thigh.

I'm a huge MT fan and train twice a week when I can, but I'm also an amateur hopologist and love the history of combative sport. Muay Thai, lethwei, savate, Japanese Kickboxing, Japanese knockdown karate (no punches or elbows to the face but everything else is fair game), US full-contact karate (shiny pants with boxing gloves), Dutch Kickboxing, sanda are all amazing and there was a fuckton of exchange from the 1950's to this day.';

'>>193020
>>193022
Thanks for extensive answer, but
>Goju-ryu utilizes a lot of low kicks
I'm sure they use it now. But in 30's? 40's? 50's? 60's? Doubt it.
>Uechi Ryu also does low kicks aimed at thighs and calves in their drills.
I'm sure they do it only for body conditioning like when you have drills when you stand against an opponent and simultanously hit each other forearm. This doesn't mean you have a special fighting technique to hit opponents forearms, it's just conditioning. I believe you can have real low kick only if you developed specific sport rulesets. With history of early karate being something about self defence having a low kick is counter intuitive.';

'>>193024
>With history of early karate being something about self defence having a low kick is counter intuitive
Not really. Okinawans felt that kicks above the waist exposed your groin needlessly. Low kicks, stamps to kneecaps/ankles, sweeps & trips were what they felt were low risk compared to doing a kick above the waist. The head is a tempting target, but their kicks were primarily to legs and the torso (and genitals obviously) because they have more area and more likely to inflict damage than timing a roundhouse kick.
Higher kicks didn't become a thing until the 1920's and 1930's. Especially when Gichin Funakoshi's son Gigo started to teach. Rumor has it that on a visit to China, Gigo was exposed to the high kicks of northern styles.

I've look at pre-1960's karate/kenpo books and footage regarding this issue. It's hard to find a full length training video or sparring footage compared to post-1960's stuff where you can clearly see leg checks and toughening the shins in karate/kenpo dojos. But the limited pictures, anecdotes I've read, and videos seemed to indicate that they definitely knew about conditioning the shin just as much they knew how to make knuckles and toes harder. So it's not far-fetched for them to have utilized them for kicks.

As I stated earlier, my theory is that exposure to Muay Thai thanks to Tatsuo Yamada's avid acceptance, Oyama and Kurosaki interacting with MT, and Japanese kickboxers vs Nak Muay matches opened their eyes to not neglect kicking with the shin.';

'>>192373
lol I bet Rafael Aghayev would destroy Andy Hug in MMA';

'>>192996
>It's boxing
lol no';

'>>193024
>I'm sure they use it now
>But in 30's? 40's? 50's? 60's?
how old do you think karate is my man?
miyagi didn't even create a kata for goju until 1940, yes it included low kicks

as far as anything oyama has claimed or done, the guy was a charlatan. He was a korean that used a fake name';

'>>193053
Oyama might have embellished and exaggerated, but he was the real deal. Many of his foreign students widely attest to him hitting hard and he was a good teacher that pushes his students to toughen up through hard sparring. I do feel that Kurosaki's influence has been forgotten. He was the #2 man in Kyokushin before he went off and formed his kickboxing gym, Mejiro. Kurosaki formulated the trademark Kyokushin (and later Dutch Kickboxing) combo of punching combinations with a low kick finisher.

And most Korean residents of Japan used a Japanese name because they were expected to Japanify their identity. And even after Japan lost WW2 and Korea got split between north and south, Oyama didn't return home but decided to remain a Japanese citizen because he wanted to live his life as a karateka.';

'>>193027
One low kick and Andy demolish that guy, these WKF people have never being hit in their lives, they will piss their pants at any contact, point-style its the absolute bottom of martial arts';

'>>191429
Black Belt magazine articles from the 1970's, a lot of judoka were bemoaning the neglect of newaza techniques and matwork.

https://books.google.com/books?id=L9QDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA73&dq=judo+newaza+matwork&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOkribka6FAxUeEVkFHYLuDz4Q6AF6BAgLEAI#v=onepage&q=judo%20newaza%20matwork&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=k84DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA23&dq=judo+newaza+matwork&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOkribka6FAxUeEVkFHYLuDz4Q6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=judo%20newaza%20matwork&f=false';

'>>193141
Well shit, even back then people realized the importance of ground-grappling and how competitive judo was neglecting it.

>>193068
Bluming cites Kurosaki as his major karate influence alongside Oyama. Kurosaki taught in the Netherlands so the foundations on why the Dutch have such a strong kickboxing scene stems from his influence there whether through karate or Japanese kickboxing.

>>193022
>In fact, if you look at Fujihira's fight footage in the MT challenge, the first attack he initiates is a low kick.
This is pretty interesting. I thought the Kyokushin guys picked up on the low kick from their exposure to Muay Thai.';

'>>193053
>how old do you think karate is my man?
I know karate is older than this, but 30s is when they started to think implement free sparrings widely by using kendo protective equipment. I don't see any reasons to utilize low kick if you develop karate for self defense, low kick is sport technique. Doesn't make it innefective on streets though';

'>>193207
>Bluming cites Kurosaki as his major karate influence alongside Oyama.
This. I read Bluming's book and he almost writes Kurosaki was main coach and Oyama was something like inspirational legend figure';

'>>193050
>lol no
kek yes';

'>>193070
One punch in the head and Rafael demolish that guy. Point-style shows well in MMA (Lyoto Machida, Robert Whittaker)';

'>>193225
>but 30s is when they started to think implement free sparrings widely by using kendo protective equipment
Nippon Kenpo pioneered that. They were the first to practice sparring with protective gear like that. But other karate and kenpo styles were still sorting themselves in the first half of the 20th century ever since Japan forcibly integrated them into their empire and the various Naha-te, Shuri-te, and Tomari-te styles were still being sorted out and developed by further Chinese influence (Uechi Ryu via Pangainoon in the late 19th century) and exposure to Japanese styles. Karate didn't even establish a foothold in Japan proper until the 1920s when Funakoshi and Motobu set up shop there.

>I don't see any reasons to utilize low kick if you develop karate for self defense, low kick is sport technique
You forget that Ryukyuan unarmed fighting derived from southern Chinese sources; where the kicks are low. Low kick was always seen as self defense first and foremost. You're only thinking that it's for combat sports from MMA, K-1, ONE FC, and other venues where low kicks play a major role.';

'you see, the use of low roundhouse kicks to the legs, would be to abandon the principle of ikken hissatsu
these leg kicks target the muscle, with the purpose of repeated hits slowing and reducing the movement of the opponent over time
it isn't in the nature of karate to invest in potshots "over time"
the ideal would be every attack is meant to be a destructive one
if the techniques you employ are ones meant to whittle down your adversary over time it would be argued you're not embracing the essence of karate anymore

in the same vein as an aikido practitioner not using trips. Undoubtedly tripping is an effective tool, however under the principle of aiki you need to receive the energy and tripping doesn't receive it, it blocks and disrupts it. So the end result may be what you wanted, but the means by which you achieved it is not what you set out to practice';

'>>193249
Ikken hisatsu stems from Japanese swordsmanship about the decisive blow: Ryukyuan fighting was more about doing things hard and fast too, but sometimes you had go chip away at first.';

'I came across the phrase Oni te hotoke kokoro and I almost died of cringe when I looked at pictures
just a bunch of middle aged slightly overweight bald white guys with beards in karate gis
why the fuck do they all look the same? as I'm typing this my skin is still crawling. Every time I start to think karate is cool again I'm reminded how fucking lame it is in no small part to this fucking phenotype going on the facebook TYPING IN ALL CAPS AND SAYING OSS IN THE COMMENTS TO EACH OTHER';

'>>193229
>where the kicks are low
kek, "low kick" is not "low" "kick". "Low kick" - is round kick with your shin to thigh or shin of opponent to deliver pain, "low" "kick" - is any kick below waist, including kick to the groin. When people discuss low kicks they usually mean first one. So did goju have low kicks back then?
>Nippon Kenpo pioneered that
I also read somewhere Gogen Yamaguchi used kendo like gear too.

Also, what you guys think about Gogen Yamaguchi?';

'>>193287
THANKS FOR THE COMMENT ANON-KUN, OSS';

'>>193287
I find it incredibly easy to avoid these types by not being on facebook';

'>>193287
OSS!';

'>>193020
There was absolutely no low kicks in karate prior 60's. In any style. To proof otherwise you don't even need to search for training montages, the only thing you need is say what kata has low kick.';

'>>193302
>Gogen Yamaguchi
A based retard that declared he was Miyagis successor even though his son rightfully was
And is responsible for teaching the American GIs so he's the grand daddy of all the ridiculous bullshit karate we find in the anglosphere today';

'undefined';

'>>193386';

'>>193387';

'>>193386
So this is how they use "hikite"? I usually grab and pull arms, sleeves and pant legs.';

'>>193228
A untrained thug can beat that guy';

'>>193564
I wouldn't be so cruel to Andy Hug';

'>>191505
How did judo influenced kyokushin?';

'>>193570
Goshin jutsu, the self defense techniques. Kyokushin used to address throws and grabs. Even ground fighting. But nobody trains that anymore.';

'>>193574
Dunno. Jon Bluming writes that when he began training in Oyama's gym in 1959, in one of the first sparring sessions he tried to throw his opponent and Oyama stopped him. Bluming writes that Oyama was shocked that judo throws could be used in karate and discussed with him the inclusion of several judo throws in the black belt exam, but in the end the throws were not included. Blooming was one of the best judokas of his time, if I remember correctly, he even defeated Geesink in some competitions, he trained at the Kodokan and always mentioned if someone knew how to wrestle well. He never mentioned that anyone in Oyama's gym knew how to wrestle. I think that Oyama had 4 dan in judo is just another myth';

'>>193578
Oyama trained judo under Koji Sone, there is documented evidence of this.

No offense to Bluming, but you have to treat what he says with some skepticism. The same for Oyama. Both men had massive egos and the truth is more in the middle of their statements.

My library has a copy of This is Karate and there is a small section devoted to grappling techniques. Maybe by the time Bluming was training karate that Oyama discouraged judo, but originally his students did judo throws as a follow-up after strikes.

If you look at Akio Fujihira's footage against the Nak Muay >>193022, he uses quite a bit of judo throws to soften the opponent up. If you look at footage of the early All Japan tournaments and even the 1st and 2nd World championships, there was more grabbing and kneeing than later tournaments did.

Also, I read that incident too. Bluming is 6'4 while Akio Fujihira (yes the same one who fought the Thai fighter) was 5'1. So it doesn't make him look favorable in using judo against a man he vastly outweighs and outsizes.

I agree with a lot of Bluming's views on how Japanese budo was like in the 1960's and afterwards, but he also comes off incredibly patronizing and full of Western chauvinism toward the Japanese. Not to say the Japanese weren't full of shit and xenophobes either, but neither side is 100% in the right.

I give Bluming a lot of credit for introducing Kyokushin into the Netherlands which laid the seed for why the Dutch are some of the preeminent European kickboxers. Through Bluming's lineage, guys like Jan Plas, Thom Harinck, Lucien Carbin, Johan Vos, Cor Hemmers, Jan Vleeseenbeek, and other pioneers of Dutch Kickboxing/Muay Thai wouldn't have established themselves. But I'm not going to take what he says as gospel either. He also made a lot of exaggerations and claims that any sensible person would roll their eyes at.';

'>>193582
Thanks for answer';

'>>193386
>>193387
This style still got beaten by Royce Gracie
>https://youtu.be/8GYfVwEB1rU?si=rfw1H07a_aFYIQlf';

'>>193887
>beat a guy with zero pro fights
wow how impressive';

'>>193887
>look BJJ is so much better
really dude';

'>>193923
>>193924
The most evolved form of karate, with like 1000 techniques for every situation and still lost, your style doesn't work';

'>>193287
That's shotokan for you.';

'>>193928
>standard bjj-tard
as a lutra livre fag, you make me cringe';

'>>193928
Royce lost to a pro wrestler. Your style doesn't work.';

'>>193936
Royce stormed out of a seminar when he was showing a kesa escape and used a judo guy as an uke who didn't comply and let his escape work';

'We keep winning the culture war';

'>>193324
There's a lot of stuff that isn't officially incorporated in kata. How many karate dojos nowadays do tui-di (the close-range grabbing) or thump punch? Toe kicks are something you rarely find outside of Okinawa.

And Muay Thai was first introduced to Japan in the 1950's, several years before Oyama's students went to Thailand. Tatsuo Yamada invited a Nak Muay to his dojo and even tried to showcase "karate-boxing" but it didn't get attention. There was also a karateka, Kenki Michiaki in the 1950's that fought in Bangkok; the first documented karate vs Muay Thai fight. From the account of the fight, the karateka had no answer to the kicks to his arms and body; he got severely pummeled and couldn't properly answer the clinch.

Gedan mawaishi geri was popularized by Kyokushin and other karate schools that were directly exposed to Muay Thai, but from my research, the "low kick" that karate and kenpo from Okinawa did involved using the calf. The use of the hardened shin was what MT contributed to karate.';

'>>193941
the elephant in the room is tae kwon do, which as we know is mostly just another situation of korea taking something japanese and pretending they came up with it first
a few points I'd like to give here
out of the 8 kata I observe required to get to black belt, the roundhouse kick is included in only 1 of them and that's all the way at kata 6
so yes, as we know it's an omnipresent technique when you look at TKD practice and it's barely included in their forms. So the absence in kata absolutely doesn't mean absence in the art and there's your proof right there

another point, those kicks of theirs didn't materialize out of nowhere, TKD has been around since before this alleged karate exposure to muay thai, and TKD didn't pull the mawashi geri out of their asses, they learned it from somewhere. Obviously the japanese had it as well

3rdly, a round house is a round house is a round house, it's the same technique no matter where you target it and we all know a common way to practice it is to change levels with it. So just because we don't explicitly see a low kick doesn't mean it wasn't applied that way';

'>>192510
I've had a look through it, seems interesting. Alot of the throws and locks are missing from kumite these days but even in old shotokan tournaments gi manipulation and throws were common before they used gloves, very different to the shit it's become';

'>>193026
I'm inclined to agree with this, after the 60s/70s Kyokushin was alot more influenced by muy thai and dutch kick boxers in the syle of fighting. Sparring wise it's not really like trad karate at my dojo but within the marching and kata there's alot of old skool stuff, sanchin and some of the crane style influences are still there. The roots of it's lineage. Always something to learn and figure out. Recently as brown belt i only realised that the early kata is basically hikate on a basic level';

'>>181554
>all the mt fags coming to vargas new video just to declare that kc is rigged and karate is a shit style for sissies
I hate keyboard warriors so much bros';

'>>194980
what happened this time? because last time he did get totally shafted because the referee and judges didn't seem to know the rule book
the guy kept shooting double legs on him which is explicitly against the rules but they were scoring it like successful takedowns';

'>>194980
If karate guys really wanted to prove how effective it is they should go to MMA and Kickboxing promotions instead of create one just for them';

'>>194988
how come karate is the only one not allowed to have their own thing like everybody else?';

'>>194988
KC allowed other styles since a season ago you fucking retard';

'new thread >>195013
new thread >>195013
new thread >>195013
new thread >>195013';